i've got bette davis eyes:: sl chat from 3/23

[16:01] Howl Yifu: OK, well, 7pm.
[16:01] Howl Yifu: Everyone comfy?
[16:01] DeSelby Zarco: slothrop, your avatar just had some wild twitches going on
[16:01] Layla Afterthought: Hi!
[16:01] Slothrop Charlesworth: detoxing
[16:01] Howl Yifu: Nice thing about this is that can't tell if we're in our pajamas or whetever.
[16:01] Howl Yifu: botoxing?
[16:01] DeSelby Zarco: i'm actually in a full suit of armor.
[16:02] Freebyrd Sugarplum is Online
[16:02] Howl Yifu: Today we'll discuss the acoustic mirror [ not quite yet ]
[16:02] Howl Yifu: First we'll do the soundscapes - I think Mary and Amelia?
[16:02] Minksy Maven: yep - Layla's with us too
[16:02] Howl Yifu: ah, right.
[16:03] Layla Afterthought: Did you get the email
[16:03] Bhodi Silverman is having trouble running both SL and her browser on her laptop, and may disappear briefly when she loads soundscapes. Sorry, bad planning on my part.
[16:03] Howl Yifu: keep in mind: next week we return to spooky dj. read into the second book (Sound Unbound)
[16:03] Howl Yifu: -- Layla: wait, not sure? email re what?
[16:03] DeSelby Zarco: ~ how far?
[16:03] Layla Afterthought: My question mark key is stuck, so I'm not just being lazy with my punctuation, heh.
[16:04] Layla Afterthought: Oh, Amelia's email about our soundscape.
[16:04] Howl Yifu: So, how can we tell if you're being ironic?
[16:04] Howl Yifu: Hmm. not sure i go that. hold on a minute.
[16:05] Slothrop Charlesworth: Hey!
[16:05] Minksy Maven: ok. we sent you our file because we had trouble uploading it
[16:05] Howl Yifu: well, looking for it.
[16:05] Howl Yifu: well, while I search in the background...
[16:05] Layla Afterthought: So, is there a way to post mp3s to the blogs
[16:06] Howl Yifu: you can link to an mp3 to a blog if the mp3 is elsewhere on the web, but you cant upload an mp3 to blogspot
[16:06] Layla Afterthought: So where else online can we put it
[16:07] Layla Afterthought: (question mark, hehe)
[16:07] DeSelby Zarco: Maybe we can e-mail them before class if the file's not huge?
[16:07] Howl Yifu: no don't have that email?
[16:07] Bhodi Silverman: If we take them to the CLC, is there an FTP site?
[16:07] Howl Yifu: OK. If you've an mp3, do the following.
[16:07] Layla Afterthought: We sent it to your mix account.
[16:08] Howl Yifu: well,, my mix account should bounce to my other accounts, but I'll look there too.
[16:08] MB Vintner: it took me awhile to find you all
[16:09] Howl Yifu: that means the file isn't ready and the moment?
[16:09] Layla Afterthought: The file is ready, it just needs to be accessed by everyone somehow.
[16:10] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I was thinking of trying to play the file into the mic here in second life
[16:10] Howl Yifu: we can take a break a bit latter and I can see if I can retrieve your file.
[16:10] Layla Afterthought: Mary is trying to send it again.
[16:10] Howl Yifu: yeah sure, play it in the mic.
[16:10] Layla Afterthought: Any preferred email address
[16:10] Howl Yifu: send it to charles.baldwin@mail.wvu.edu
[16:10] Kathereene Kahanamoku: pl
[16:10] Kathereene Kahanamoku: i mean ok
[16:10] Howl Yifu: ok. and when we break i will quickly send all of you some instructions as to where oyu could upload mp3s if needed.
[16:10] Lindsey Ireman is Online
[16:10] Layla Afterthought: Mary is sending it now.
[16:11] Howl Yifu: Now, while mary sends.
[16:11] Howl Yifu: Another future issue is google docs as a way of uploading your final papers.
[16:11] Howl Yifu: Pretty simple.
[16:11] Howl Yifu: Go to google.com/docs or docs.google.com (ends up the same place)
[16:12] Howl Yifu: Login - you have a google account already, since you have a blogger account.
[16:12] Howl Yifu: There's an upload tab.
[16:12] DeSelby Zarco: there's megaupload that's pretty easy for mp3s if emailing causes problems on bigger files
[16:12] Howl Yifu: Tony's right: there's a bunch of places to put them. I'll send the CLC instructions if the email doens't reach me.
[16:13] Howl Yifu: OK: Upload tab on google docs. You can uplaod pretty much everything *except* the new Microsoft formats (.docx etc) so save those as .doc
[16:13] Howl Yifu: Then, once uploaded, choose the share tab.
[16:14] Howl Yifu: then you've got a couple of options, but the easiest is "publish as a webpage" and then "publish on a blog" will put it right on your blog
[16:14] Howl Yifu: ok.. I'll send these instructions around later.
[16:15] Howl Yifu: i've received mary's file. I'll upload it while we're talking.
[16:15] Rachel Geraln: ok
[16:15] Bhodi Silverman: Sandy, since I'm doing a sort of mutli-media thing for mine, which I had figured I'd do in PowerPoint, will I be able to just FTP it to you, or do I need to repurpose it for the web and find a host?
[16:15] Layla Afterthought: Yay!
[16:16] Howl Yifu: Well, you can upload powerpoint to googledocs, even regular/non-html ppt
[16:16] Howl Yifu: try, if it doesn't work, email and we'll figure it out
[16:17] Bhodi Silverman: Okay, thanks. I didn't think Googledocs would take embedded sound files, and I'm leaning on those a lotl
[16:17] Howl Yifu: ok. give me two minues to start uploading that file.
[16:17] Kathereene Kahanamoku: Wish I could figure out how to sit down
[16:17] Howl Yifu: bhodi: ok. then you can ftp it to the clc site. it will be the same instructions i send in a bit for mp3s.
[16:17] Lindsey Ireman is Offline
[16:17] Alan Dojoji is Online
[16:18] Howl Yifu: give me two minutes here
[16:19] Lindsey Ireman is Online
[16:20] Howl Yifu: it's uploading.
[16:20] Howl Yifu: Alright. Once that's there we'll listen and then talk about it.
[16:20] Howl Yifu: next week it's the rest of the sounds...
[16:21] DeSelby Zarco: when you say to get going on Sound Unbound, how deep into that do you want us to be (Martina and I are instigating, how far should we cover?)
[16:21] Howl Yifu: well, let's say next week up through the essay by Pauline Oliveiros.
[16:22] MRF Hammerthall: sounds good
[16:23] Howl Yifu: well, the upload is slow because i'm running second life as well here on this stupid portable internet thing i've bought here.
[16:23] Howl Yifu: too expensive to get a line into the apartment here - dsl or whatever - so it's all wifi - a bit wavery at times.
[16:24] Amelia Mistwalker: Please!
[16:24] Howl Yifu: OK. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sbaldwin/soundproject.mp3
[16:24] Amelia Mistwalker: Boo!
[16:25] Howl Yifu: try that. any instruction layla amelia mary?
[16:25] Minksy Maven: turn it up real loud!!!!
[16:25] Howl Yifu: ok. let's listen -
[16:26] Freebyrd Sugarplum: can you send the link again?
[16:26] Howl Yifu: http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sbaldwin/soundproject.mp3
[16:26] DeSelby Zarco: wow this got weird all of a sudden
[16:28] Minksy Maven: haha no. we didn't involve brad or his office in this one
[16:28] Howl Yifu: brad who?
[16:29] DeSelby Zarco: this is weird, i'm seeing responses occasionally when i don't the question
[16:29] Bhodi Silverman: Me, too.
[16:29] MRF Hammerthall: me too
[16:29] Minksy Maven: a lecturer who has a microwave in his office. but there was no microwave involved
[16:29] Howl Yifu: tony: you might be getting im'd?
[16:29] Lindsey Ireman: I am also not seeing all questions asked
[16:29] Minksy Maven: rachel must've been asking me about what we did to record
[16:29] DeSelby Zarco: meaning what?
[16:30] Minksy Maven: so what did you think?
[16:30] Rachel Geraln: sorry my bad
[16:30] Howl Yifu: ok. could be people are out of range. let's close ranks.
[16:30] Bhodi Silverman really likes this soundscape!
[16:30] Layla Afterthought: Thanks!
[16:30] Howl Yifu: no, range isn't the issue.
[16:30] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I enjoyed it
[16:30] Rachel Geraln: i liked the mixing in it!
[16:30] Howl Yifu: oh crap.
[16:31] Kathereene Kahanamoku: It was fun--was there a zipper involved?
[16:31] Minksy Maven: that was me!
[16:31] Slothrop Charlesworth: I give it an A
[16:31] Minksy Maven: yep
[16:31] Layla Afterthought: Zipper is correct!
[16:31] Sabrina Loudwater: I like the remixing of the voices -- nice touch.
[16:31] Howl Yifu: you are the zipper?
[16:31] DeSelby Zarco: i really liked when the conversation just exploded
[16:31] MoBecca Podless: footsteps good--made me anxious
[16:31] Slothrop Charlesworth: yeah it got violent somewhere there in the middle
[16:31] Rachel Geraln: yea!
[16:31] Bhodi Silverman: I love how sounds went from recognizable to not and back again.
[16:31] Rachel Geraln: it sounded like stomp for a minute
[16:31] Minksy Maven: i made a lot of the noises - the zipper, the oh crap, the banging
[16:32] Minksy Maven: no stomp though!
[16:32] Layla Afterthought: They're all office sounds.
[16:32] Layla Afterthought: It's pretty much all Mary.
[16:32] Rachel Geraln: Well, I meant that show where people just bang stuff together
[16:32] Howl Yifu: there are ways it relates to the acoustic mirror as well: female voices, a kind of focusing of presence, ...
[16:32] Layla Afterthought: It was not very noisy in real life... except some parts.
[16:32] Amelia Mistwalker: I did the "ah" after the coffee!
[16:32] Rachel Geraln: yes!!!
[16:32] Layla Afterthought: I did most of the annoying Talk Explosion, heh.
[16:33] Minksy Maven: true. it would've been much quieter and less exciting without the use of Layla's iPhone application
[16:33] Layla Afterthought: I've listened to it way too often now.
[16:33] Howl Yifu: there was a bbizarro donald duck echo as well, on the voices
[16:33] Howl Yifu: very good! excellent at fun.
[16:33] Layla Afterthought: We just recorded it filtered through this program that samples everything immediately back and creates different effects.
[16:33] Freebyrd Sugarplum: is the background fuzz just ambient noise from the office?
[16:34] Layla Afterthought: I think it worked out really well.
[16:34] Layla Afterthought: Pretty much, yeah.
[16:34] Howl Yifu: can you repeat a few things about it for me: 1) what is the relation to offices? 2) "talk explosion" is that something you've just coined?
[16:34] Amelia Mistwalker: Yes, Freebyrd
[16:34] Layla Afterthought: Haha, yeah.
[16:34] Kathereene Kahanamoku: nice
[16:34] Amelia Mistwalker: 1. It was done in an office and they are office noises
[16:34] Howl Yifu: aha!
[16:35] Howl Yifu: banal and familiar, yet spacy and eerie inthis case...
[16:35] Amelia Mistwalker: (coffee pouring, typing, radio, chatting, keys)
[16:35] Layla Afterthought: In my blog post I talk about how office sounds are rea;ly recognizable and common, in their innanimate way. We made them sound almost more "alive"
[16:35] Howl Yifu: nice. coffee pouring has a really odd sound.
[16:35] Layla Afterthought: The have more of a "personality" almost...
[16:36] Howl Yifu: i can imagine an analysis of office noises via attali's article from a few weeks ago:
[16:36] Layla Afterthought: Whereas the people talking sounded LESS intelligible and "normal"
[16:36] Howl Yifu: office sounds aren't really sounds anymore but commodities, measured and tied to production (the stapler sound, the keyboard keys, even the coffee)
[16:37] Howl Yifu: so, making a soundscape - or making the altered voices - discovers the noise and utopic outside (inside?) of the office
[16:37] Layla Afterthought: True. Is the typing on our recording immediately recognizable?
[16:37] Amelia Mistwalker: don't forget the ping pong ball of boredom
[16:37] Howl Yifu: would be worth playiing it against the beginning of Money by Pink Floyd with the cash register
[16:37] Minksy Maven: it wasn't boredom - i just like ping pong
[16:37] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I like how it gets progressively more chaotic as it goes along
[16:38] Howl Yifu: yes, a lot happening in two short minutes.
[16:38] Layla Afterthought: Listening to it again after recording, it really reminded me of being in an empty office and then people suddenly sticking their heads in and making random small talk.
[16:38] Layla Afterthought: We used really stereotypical phrases.
[16:39] DeSelby Zarco: it reminded me how much i hate office sound--but that could just be about my office
[16:39] Slothrop Charlesworth: Is there an intended function for the program you used on the iphone?
[16:39] Minksy Maven: yeah. and we felt all of the banging and clashing kind of resembled my frustration as the main sound-maker in the office trying to get work done but having trouble
[16:39] Howl Yifu: another thing about offices is we don't always think of them as spaces with potentials for noise or other activites; they're intended for a single purpose (producing paper or whatever)
[16:39] Sabrina Loudwater: I kind of felt like I was in the office at the end of the hall and these were the noises happening around me, but not including me.
[16:39] DeSelby Zarco: not that i hated the soundscape!
[16:39] Layla Afterthought: You're supposed to walk around and "experience the world around you in a new way"
[16:39] Howl Yifu: yes, what is the program called?
[16:39] Layla Afterthought: You can google RJDJ
[16:39] Layla Afterthought: That's the program.
[16:40] Howl Yifu: iPhone ist sehr kuhl
[16:40] MoBecca Podless: ja voll
[16:40] Layla Afterthought: Haha, das stimmt!
[16:40] Howl Yifu: i think, as the first of these, this was great.
[16:40] MB Vintner: yes, the bar has been set high
[16:40] Howl Yifu: they can have more or less semantic content / message/ etc.
[16:41] Howl Yifu: they can be more or less technological (?) whatever that might mean
[16:41] beth Wasp: it reminds of the fact that we notice office sound during moments of tension----either when we have too much or too little work to do; I like how the soundscape creates new work out of the stifled office work
[16:41] Minksy Maven: thanks. that's part of what we were going for
[16:41] beth Wasp: very cool soundscape
[16:41] Freebyrd Sugarplum: not that the workplace is ever stifling....
[16:41] Layla Afterthought: Thanks!
[16:42] Howl Yifu: yes beth, suggests the absent body in the office. alsmost like a dickinson poem: I hear a fly
[16:42] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I agree. Awesome
[16:42] Minksy Maven: a microwave in there would've been interesting too
[16:42] Howl Yifu: yes. put popcorn in the micrwave, set it for 15 minutes, and start recording
[16:42] Rachel Geraln: That's what I thought the dinging was...for a second Ithought it was a break room
[16:42] beth Wasp: ah yes...
[16:42] Lindsey Ireman: ahh burnt popcorn...thats the smell of a real office
[16:42] Minksy Maven: and we do get that on the 3rd floor quite often
[16:43] Amelia Mistwalker: yeah--no smells. we're not THAT tech savvy
[16:43] Howl Yifu: hmmm, what else cna you do with a microwaver? different sounds i suppose.
[16:43] Layla Afterthought: Next project! Smellscape!
[16:43] Kathereene Kahanamoku: SOme of us are humgry
[16:43] Slothrop Charlesworth: 3rd floor represent
[16:43] Howl Yifu: hee hee. ok, other comments?
[16:43] Slothrop Charlesworth: I'm trying to figure out why it gets more hectic as it goes alone
[16:44] Slothrop Charlesworth: along
[16:44] beth Wasp: i liked how the voices could have been anyone's---I felt implicated in them
[16:44] Minksy Maven: the program seems to add more sounds as more get recorded, and it also picks up the pace
[16:44] Howl Yifu: yes, the voices sneak up and suddenly are a crowd.
[16:44] Bhodi Silverman: I really liked how some voices were foregrounded and others were backgrounded... it created a sense of physical space for me.
[16:44] Slothrop Charlesworth: oh ok that makes sense
[16:44] Layla Afterthought: The louder the noise, the more it does with them.
[16:44] beth Wasp: for a moment, I thought my voice had been recorded---strange
[16:45] Layla Afterthought: I also liked that it got loud and angry after "oh crap".... I like to call it the Angry Thunder, hehe.
[16:45] Howl Yifu: james: do you like or dislike this aspect?
[16:45] Amelia Mistwalker: more hectic? one of my interpretations is that Mary's getting more and more bored.
[16:45] Howl Yifu: i.e. the increasing chaos?
[16:45] Howl Yifu: hecticocity
[16:45] Slothrop Charlesworth: I like it because it seems constantly changing all the way through
[16:45] Layla Afterthought: And after the voices it gets quiet again.
[16:45] beth Wasp: also, the chaos ensues during the conversation---which could involve the network of thoughts, actions, distractions held together in the conversation
[16:45] Howl Yifu: - with amelia, i did find it tied to ennui
[16:45] Layla Afterthought: I thought it felt pretty relieving when the voices stopped.
[16:45] Slothrop Charlesworth: moving towards something
[16:46] Layla Afterthought: If it didn't have the steps, you could almost loop it!
[16:46] Layla Afterthought: Etermal office!
[16:46] Bhodi Silverman: Layla... I did, too. After a while, they were pretty overwhelming, but in a powerful way.
[16:46] Layla Afterthought: Eternal.
[16:47] Howl Yifu: OK, two minute break while I fish out the instructions for mp3 posting. Then we move to Silverman. OK?
[16:47] Layla Afterthought: If I was in Austria, I'd be using those two minutes to grab a beer
[16:47] Lindsey Ireman: here here
[16:48] Kathereene Kahanamoku: Over here!
[16:48] Rachel Geraln: ahhhh yes that sounds nice
[16:48] Amelia Mistwalker: but you ARE in Austria
[16:48] Layla Afterthought: .... so I can have virtual beer
[16:48] Rachel Geraln: haha
[16:48] Bhodi Silverman: Oh, wait, I'm going to pretend like I'm in Paris and go grab some wine. What a great idea!
[16:48] Lindsey Ireman: we are in the lab in colson
[16:48] DeSelby Zarco: they don't have beer in your part of town?
[16:48] Layla Afterthought: Shoulda brought a twelvepack, I knew it.
[16:48] Slothrop Charlesworth: ahh colson. hit the coke machine
[16:49] Layla Afterthought: Haha, I might!
[16:49] Minksy Maven: we will!!!! you should be here Charles
[16:49] Minksy Maven: hahaha sounds good
[16:49] Howl Yifu: had much red wine already
[16:50] Howl Yifu: ok, if you want to post an mp3 file, go to the clc site and login as before (engl693, pword *****)
[16:50] Howl Yifu: Go to “My Folder” on upper right
[16:50] Howl Yifu: You’ll see a pull down menu and next to it a blue highlighted area saying Add New Item.
[16:50] Howl Yifu: Pull down and select File.
[16:51] Howl Yifu: You'll see a box to put a Title for the file. Give it a short, single string (soundscape rather than "My Groovy Long Title")
[16:51] Howl Yifu: and a box for "File" that let's you select from your desktop.
[16:51] Alan Dojoji is Offline
[16:52] Howl Yifu: Upload the file and note the link when it's done uploading.
[16:52] Howl Yifu: I'll send these around via email later as well.
[16:52] Howl Yifu: ok., now it's katherine and rachel, correct?
[16:52] Rachel Geraln: yep
[16:52] Kathereene Kahanamoku: mmhm
[16:53] Rachel Geraln: Ok so we are going to talk about the Accoustic Mirror
[16:53] Howl Yifu: We're talking Kaja silverman's Acoustic Mirror. We can take this in numerous directions., but let's see what Katherine and Rachel have to say.
[16:53] Rachel Geraln: http://rachelthinkingaloudquestionmark.blogspot.com/
[16:53] Kathereene Kahanamoku: for reference: www.noiseswesay.blogspot.com
[16:53] Rachel Geraln: this is my blog there are some videos on these for you guys to look at in a bit
[16:53] Kathereene Kahanamoku: There are some pictures of some of the mirrors
[16:54] Howl Yifu: should we look at both, or one at a time?
[16:54] Rachel Geraln: we will direct you there
[16:54] Howl Yifu: ok
[16:54] Rachel Geraln: but for starters we just want to talk briefly about what an accoustic mirror is
[16:55] Rachel Geraln: besides the obvious female shape (bodily representation)
[16:55] Kathereene Kahanamoku: So these acoustic mirrors were basically giant concrete ears that were kindof predecessors of radar during WWII
[16:56] Kathereene Kahanamoku: These acoustic mirror experts would listen to the sound impulses captured in the concave structures and they could tell even what kind of planes were coming from 15+ miles away
[16:57] Kathereene Kahanamoku: that gave a few more minutes notice than visual sightings
[16:57] DeSelby Zarco: unless they came from the other direction
[16:57] Kathereene Kahanamoku: Right--they started mounting some of these on wheels eventually
[16:58] Howl Yifu: This history is interesting. How much does this factor into silverman’s account? Conversely, what does it add?
[16:58] Kathereene Kahanamoku: so Silverman was saying that these concave structures are really symbolic of the female voice as a reflection of male expression
[16:58] Rachel Geraln: How did you all feel this book related to today. We are sitting in a world 20+ years after the writing fo the book. So how are representations the same/familiar/etc?
[16:59] Rachel Geraln: sorry, we just wanted to give a brief background...because we want to come back to it later if we have time
[16:59] Slothrop Charlesworth: same results different technology...even if 20 years later
[16:59] Howl Yifu: no, It's important. one thing it suggest, for example, is a wider range of application - beyond film -
[17:00] Liz Finistair: It seems like, if we take into account the Freudian reading Silverman was doing as well, that the "original" acoustic mirrors were also a way of using an apparatus to attempt to cover over a sense of lack
[17:00] Rachel Geraln: yes!
[17:00] Rachel Geraln: and the sense of lack that writers and directors were imagining in audiences
[17:00] Liz Finistair: filling in for what we can't see (almost a bit like the subconscious we can't see)
[17:00] Kathereene Kahanamoku: and perpetuating through film
[17:01] Howl Yifu: so, this would push cinematic space outward onto "real" space. or that we understand the real space through cinematic spoace and its missing/lack
[17:01] Rachel Geraln: or make it a mirror of "Real" space
[17:01] Liz Finistair: As far as whether it's still relevant 20+ years later, I think it definitely is, although I'm not sure it's as gendered as Silverman says it is.
[17:01] Rachel Geraln: Ok ... well to deviate a bit towards pop culture
[17:02] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I agree, Liz. And I think that the filmmakers are at least more aware of these issues/themes
[17:02] Howl Yifu: also the war dimension: mobilization of this technology as a relation to the enemy - playing out the problem of male subjectivity silverman describes.
[17:02] Howl Yifu: ok - yes, let's talk about the contemporary.
[17:02] Freebyrd Sugarplum: audiences, too
[17:02] Kathereene Kahanamoku: The separation between the viewer and the viewed I thought was an interesting relationship that seems to hinge upon that sense of lack
[17:02] Rachel Geraln: I Well this idea of male subjectivity
[17:02] Rachel Geraln: for instance the most unwanted song ever
[17:02] Rachel Geraln: versus the most wanted song
[17:02] Howl Yifu: Freebyrd, or others, can we think of examples of contemporary films that do something different with female voice?
[17:03] Rachel Geraln: in the "more wanted" version the woman's voice is lower and sultry
[17:03] Freebyrd Sugarplum: for sure.
[17:03] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I've actually written some on Tarantino
[17:03] Rachel Geraln: and if you think about famous singers and voices that we here today...Justin Timberlake, Josh Grobin, etc
[17:03] DeSelby Zarco: what about the little mermaid?
[17:03] Rachel Geraln: and Norah Roberts and others
[17:03] Howl Yifu: or are we still within the hollywood system described by film theory 20 years ago.
[17:03] DeSelby Zarco: she loses her voice
[17:03] Freebyrd Sugarplum: And yes, I think he's a bit exploitationist, but I think there's an awareness there
[17:03] Rachel Geraln: there voices kind of meet in te middle in this sort of androngeous zone
[17:03] Howl Yifu: So, Little Mermaid is an example of the acoustic mirror.
[17:04] Kathereene Kahanamoku: And to tie that back to the mirror, the female was becoming a receptacle for male aggression and violence
[17:04] Howl Yifu: Tartantino... Kill Bill she also gets her voice taken away?
[17:04] Freebyrd Sugarplum: even within his own films, Uma Thurman has become a more progressive hero in her separate film appearances
[17:04] Rachel Geraln: good point!
[17:04] Freebyrd Sugarplum: But that film is about getting her voice back, maybe
[17:05] Howl Yifu: I think KB I and II would be good to analyze from this angle.
[17:05] Rachel Geraln: but on male terms
[17:05] Liz Finistair: But with The Little Mermaid, she loses her voice to another woman (ish thing)
[17:05] Amelia Mistwalker: yeah, Tarantino--hadn't thought of that connection Jason
[17:05] Howl Yifu: The narrative enfolding of Kill Bill would be tied to voice.
[17:05] Freebyrd Sugarplum: At any rate, it's a much different hero than Sarah Connor in Rachel's blog description
[17:05] Rachel Geraln: If you think about Kill Bill nothing that Kiddo does is very maternal in natures
[17:05] Rachel Geraln: granted she is revenging for her daughter
[17:05] MoBecca Podless: but even so, most films with "strong" female characters are strong because they take on what society perceives as masculine traits. the women in kill bill fight, kung fu, and kill throughout the movie
[17:05] DeSelby Zarco: the lioness and her cub
[17:05] Rachel Geraln: I think they are really quite the same
[17:06] Kathereene Kahanamoku: but she has had the maternal role taken away from her
[17:06] Lindsey Ireman: There is an interesting book called from Shane to Kill Bill that examines Kill Bill as a western and talks about voice
[17:06] Lindsey Ireman: if anyone is interested
[17:06] Rachel Geraln: Kiddo and Sarah Connor...their only "woman" link is their maternal nature
[17:06] Freebyrd Sugarplum: but I dont' think they necessarily seem masculine
[17:06] Kathereene Kahanamoku: and she is therefore operating in an androgenous scenario
[17:06] Lindsey Ireman: it also talks about Kiddo's maternal instincts or lack thereof
[17:06] MoBecca Podless: angelina jolie wears leather and is a spy and has a gun in every other movie
[17:06] Liz Finistair: That's an interesting point, Rebecca. Think also of any of Joss Whedon's teenage girl/butt-kicking heroines
[17:07] Rachel Geraln: yes....but think how we are discussing these films
[17:07] Howl Yifu: Keep in mind, however, that there were women action heroes in the past.
[17:07] Rachel Geraln: that all have male directors, writers, producers
[17:07] Liz Finistair: There's a weird tension between being masculine and powerful and being sexy
[17:07] Liz Finistair: They seem to have to go together.
[17:07] Freebyrd Sugarplum: YeYes, but look at Ripley in Aliens. Much more masculine.
[17:07] DeSelby Zarco: until the end
[17:07] Liz Finistair: So in a way, the female voice still has to match the picture of the woman we're seeing
[17:07] Howl Yifu: ok, so sexiness and masculinity. Ripley: also a deep voice.
[17:07] DeSelby Zarco: wehn they put her in a tank top for the final battle
[17:07] Liz Finistair: Yeah, much has been made of Sigourney Weaver in her underwear
[17:08] Kathereene Kahanamoku: yes!! I would like to direct everyone to the link to a clip from Singin in the rain
[17:08] MoBecca Podless: generally, for a woman to have a voice, films have to make her physically tough, able to hang with the guys.
[17:08] DeSelby Zarco: i actually blogged about sigourney (but in relation to Planet Earth voiceover)
[17:08] Kathereene Kahanamoku: Whenever we get around to it
[17:08] Howl Yifu: ooh, ok tony, can you say more?
[17:08] MoBecca Podless: i do love me some g.i. jane
[17:08] Howl Yifu: katheeene - say again?
[17:08] Liz Finistair: haha
[17:09] DeSelby Zarco: just my concern about why the reception of her voice didn't go over that well (i didn't like it much iether)
[17:09] Rachel Geraln: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5sNLw4Rlvc
[17:09] Howl Yifu: can you summarize the reception?
[17:09] Kathereene Kahanamoku: about the first sixty seconds
[17:09] Howl Yifu: and why it didn't go well
[17:10] DeSelby Zarco: it made me a bit uncomfortable--they ended up selling it with the English version on DVD instead of hers
[17:10] DeSelby Zarco: which was done by a man
[17:10] Liz Finistair: why uncomfortable?
[17:10] DeSelby Zarco: (by English i mean British)
[17:10] Howl Yifu: got it. I'm sorry Katherene, I missed the direciton to the clip.
[17:10] Howl Yifu: Go look!
[17:10] Liz Finistair: I thought her voice was soothing in that
[17:10] Kathereene Kahanamoku: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5sNLw4Rlvc
[17:10] Kathereene Kahanamoku: about the first sixty seconds
[17:10] Howl Yifu: thanks
[17:11] Kathereene Kahanamoku: THis clip portrays a highly desirable body with a highly undesirable voice
[17:12] Kathereene Kahanamoku: high pitched, nasal, and heavily accented
[17:12] Slothrop Charlesworth: in the clip the woman in power sounds more masculine than the feminine child who has no power
[17:12] Kathereene Kahanamoku: exactly
[17:12] Kathereene Kahanamoku: and she asks the actress to utter jibberish
[17:13] Kathereene Kahanamoku: reaffirming what SIlverman was talking about--female voice being marked by irrationality and the unintelligible
[17:13] Kathereene Kahanamoku: in film
[17:14] Bhodi Silverman is really struck by the way the word "can't" sounds like a different c-word when pronounced "correctly" in that clip, and thinks that really makes the point.
[17:14] DeSelby Zarco: um, kinda
[17:14] Kathereene Kahanamoku: So while the voice is feminine it is not female
[17:14] DeSelby Zarco: but no more than can't would anyway
[17:15] Kathereene Kahanamoku: that is sexually identifiable as female
[17:15] Lindsey Ireman: I have to say it is interesting that the men are also silencing the voice of authority in the end
[17:15] moro Claven: Hey!
[17:15] Howl Yifu: Well, Bhodi: as if this is all about almost but not quite making explicit the sexualization, as if every word were the c-word
[17:16] moro Claven: hi all
[17:16] Howl Yifu: hello.
[17:16] Howl Yifu: Question: Isn't this scene that we've been pointed to intrinsic to film? Or rather, about film. A director asks the actress to utter words, not her words but those of another. So, why does become symptomatized in women and the voice of women? Why are women the hysterical voice of the medium?
[17:17] Rachel Geraln: After we discuss this clip I would like for everyone to go to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lHTsF2HFoc&feature=related and watch the clip from 2:20-2:50
[17:17] Minksy Maven: Re: Lindsey: yeah, if you watch the entire clip and dance scene, gene kelly quits the speech lesson and dances on - like saying enough of the lesson. the teacher has been silenced.
[17:17] Howl Yifu: i.e. talking movies are possible with a director making someone speak certain words.
[17:17] Rachel Geraln: this ties in nicely to what we wanted to talk about and Katherine got at in Women being hearing and Men being meaning
[17:17] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I really think this next clip will illustrate an answer to that question, Howl
[17:18] Howl Yifu: ok!
[17:18] Rachel Geraln: In this portion of the interview with Bette Davis she talks about the place of men in film and the need for actors
[17:19] Rachel Geraln: you can watch a little further as she talksa bout adlibbing a bit more
[17:20] Rachel Geraln: So thinking about this...could we say who exactly is disemboding voices and classifying the lack that we talked about earlier
[17:21] Kathereene Kahanamoku: She attributes all her success to male screenwriters
[17:21] Rachel Geraln: I mean even in talking about Angelina and Uma and action characters their bodies are so masculine that how can their voices be authentic?
[17:22] Slothrop Charlesworth: you'd have to dub it in like the girl in the exorcist
[17:22] Kathereene Kahanamoku: She really abhors the adlibbing of actors who want to just be themselves onstage
[17:22] moro Claven: MIYA HEEEE MIYA HOOOOO MIYA HAWWW MIYA HA HAAAA!
[17:23] Lindsey Ireman: though there aren't as many popular female directors, how are these questions complicated by people like Sofia Copolla (Sp?). Even her movies based on books have been written by females
[17:23] MoBecca Podless: not all of them
[17:23] Howl Yifu: well, part of this is a question of sorting out the role of the author/director relation, on the one hand,
[17:24] Lindsey Ireman: she may have more than I am aware of. Not a fan;-)
[17:24] Howl Yifu: i.e. does it / can it make a difference if the director is female etc.
[17:24] Freebyrd Sugarplum: it can, but it doesn't necessarily have to
[17:24] Slothrop Charlesworth: she still has to work within the framework set up by a male-dominated profession
[17:24] Howl Yifu: and on the other hand, sorting out if this is somehow intrinsic to cinema or the apparatus, or at least to "hollywood" as a system
[17:24] Rachel Geraln: Most definitely ... it lends some authenticity
[17:24] Kathereene Kahanamoku: It's an interesting politic--people can choose whether to be directed by a male or female voice on their GPS systems
[17:24] moro Claven: IM SOOO LONLEYYYYYYYY
[17:25] Howl Yifu: hee hee
[17:25] Howl Yifu: rachel: what lends authenticity?
[17:26] Rachel Geraln: lead to authenticity of a female role
[17:26] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I agree. It can lend authenticity, having a woman direct women in roles written by women
[17:26] Freebyrd Sugarplum: but
[17:26] Rachel Geraln: I mean we have all of these books like Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus
[17:26] MoBecca Podless: they still have to please the audience and have others to answer to
[17:26] Howl Yifu: well, silverman is interesting here.
[17:26] Freebyrd Sugarplum: even a lot of Cassavete's female actors said he understood women better than many women
[17:27] Rachel Geraln: and while we differ from human being to human being....our characters have to fit the audience
[17:27] Howl Yifu: on the one hand, she wants to find experimental women directors who undermine or displace the acoustic mirror apparatus,
[17:27] Rachel Geraln: and make up for whatever it is that he/she lacks
[17:27] Rachel Geraln: right
[17:27] Howl Yifu: on the other hand, it's clear that she';s uncomforable forcing this, i.e. assuming that women directors will undermine it.
[17:27] MoBecca Podless: i think many female directors try so hard to live up to expectations about portraying females in a certain way that they forget about have a good character instead
[17:28] Bhodi Silverman: Isn't there some danger, though, in the idea that that Cassavete could understand women better than many women, and isn't there a sort of sexism in that statement that might be attributable to the way in which actresses are taught to experience their femininity?
[17:28] Freebyrd Sugarplum: totally
[17:28] Howl Yifu: caviani is a good example: silverman has to work quite hard, dig deep, to discover alternatives
[17:28] Bhodi Silverman: (Although I can't believe I am making such an essentialist statement?)
[17:28] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I didn't read sexism in that statement. It's just what they said
[17:29] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I don't think they were necessarily suffering from a lack of self-examination by saying it
[17:29] MoBecca Podless: isnt it sexist to believe that men could never understand women?
[17:29] Freebyrd Sugarplum: totes.
[17:29] Howl Yifu: so, what is our assumption about the author-function in film then? aren't we saying here that films are statements of authorship more or less like books? is that true or useful?
[17:29] Howl Yifu: i.e. if we work back from the film to the director
[17:29] Rachel Geraln: I think it is both true and useful
[17:29] Bhodi Silverman: I don't think that's the issue; rather the suggestion that women can't understand themselves as well as this particular man.
[17:29] Slothrop Charlesworth: true in a sense, but the adlibbing makes it a joing authorship
[17:30] Freebyrd Sugarplum: It's true if there's the presumption that the director is the sole author
[17:30] Rachel Geraln: it creates an authentic character as imagined through the eyes/mind of the actor
[17:30] DeSelby Zarco: i got a sense that it wasn't all in the direction--but in the medium itself. at least that's what i thought i was seeing in the first chapter
[17:30] Kathereene Kahanamoku: In a joint authorship authenticity can still be maintained or achieved
[17:31] Howl Yifu: bhodi: certainly the claim for cassevetes fits a long chain of claims for male power as insight into women's psyche
[17:31] Slothrop Charlesworth: I agree, just pointing out a difference from a book (though even this could be argued)
[17:31] Rachel Geraln: but take someone like Drew Barymore...I would imagine that few of us have had experiences simillar to hers so her authenticity of a character might never be re-created even with the same director. I think what we have to take into account is the social dynamics that play to the Audience and his/her lack
[17:31] Kathereene Kahanamoku: instead of just the ears of the actor
[17:31] Howl Yifu: as well as a claim for the director knowing htings
[17:31] Rachel Geraln: I think we have to come back to that audience...for with out them there would be no film
[17:31] Rachel Geraln: so what do these representations say about who is listening/watching?
[17:31] beth Wasp: i can read a movie as a director's statement, but not in its entirety---I think that's what I learned from Silverman
[17:32] Rachel Geraln: that's a nice summation
[17:32] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I also think authenticity is a hard thing to accomplish in acting.. there are a lot of people that entirely miss it
[17:33] Liz Finistair: but isn't part of the point of acting to sort of fake authenticcity?
[17:33] Liz Finistair: minus one "c" in there
[17:33] Liz Finistair: So can we really say that there's an element of authenticity in the first place?
[17:33] Kathereene Kahanamoku: yep thats what i said
[17:33] Lindsey Ireman: exactlyliz.thatiswhatIwasjustthinking
[17:33] DeSelby Zarco: well otherwise there'd be a lot of downtime in film, sleeping, watching tv
[17:34] Lindsey Ireman: my space bar stoppped working. sorry
[17:34] Howl Yifu: well, is what we're after here iwth "authenticity" also a kind of progressive and utopic sense of possiblity for women subjects (all subjects)
[17:34] Howl Yifu: so, we want to know how to "correct" the acoustic miror"
[17:35] Howl Yifu: and this would include working with/through filmic ficitonality/diegesis, which, as liz points, is intrinsic
[17:35] Howl Yifu: we need to sort assertions about authorship in film (i.e. who the director is, what she intends, what would constitute authenticity) from statements about film and the filmic apparatus
[17:37] Howl Yifu: If, for example, the voice-body relation always articulates desire, is always *about* desiring production (produced by film, by the filmic apparatus). Then the question is which bodies and where. Silverman suggests that for women, this relation is always in some way dis-articulated and in quite strategic ways (basically to prop up / keep away male anxieties)
[17:37] Rachel Geraln: so is that why Uma thurman is still sad after she finally kills bill
[17:37] DeSelby Zarco: not to be the idiot in the room--but, okay, so what do we do with that?
[17:38] Liz Finistair: well, part of the problem is that all of it is gendered, right?
[17:39] Howl Yifu: Then we could cover a spectrum of cases of body-voice relations: Marilyn Monroe, Tilda Swinton, or [who is the star of Legally Blond?]; and strategies per Silverman, e.g. voice-overs, talking cures, breakdowns of voice, etc.
[17:39] Sabrina Loudwater: reese witherspoon
[17:39] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I think all of our discourse is gendered
[17:39] Liz Finistair: the "male" anxiety (which, if you go with the Lacanian revision of Freud, is actually just a human anxiety) is forced onto the "female" body. So how can that binary be dissolved?
[17:40] MoBecca Podless: why does it have to be neutral?
[17:40] Liz Finistair: Yeah, Kathereene, you're right, which makes the problem more...problematic
[17:40] Howl Yifu: Liz, this goes to tony's question too, of what do we do with this?
[17:40] Amelia Mistwalker: yeah, our discourse is culturally constructed
[17:41] Howl Yifu: but Liz also points this out in her blog: both genders (all humans) have this disarticulation of voice-body (its being human), and so the binary isn't really one at all
[17:41] beth Wasp: in this spectrum of cases then, we can look at the movie's (director's) perspective and attempt to recuperate moments of resistance?
[17:41] Liz Finistair: It doesn't have to be neutral, but at the same time, I guess what Silverman is trying to say is that it shouldn't be mysoginistic, either
[17:41] Howl Yifu: its a cultural binary - who runs the machine - and not an ontological binary
[17:41] MoBecca Podless: well, of course it shouldnt be mysoginistic---
[17:43] Howl Yifu: beth: i would think so, but the question, it seems to me, is if we assume resistance or not? how do we know when to look for it? are there special case directors - I'm thinking now of the Piano with Holly Hunter, very much about woman's voice. Who is that director? Sall yPotter?, no...
[17:43] Howl Yifu: so, do we look for resistance because we project an act of authorship onto the directer and if so which directors?
[17:43] Liz Finistair: Ooh, that's a good example, too, since the male body is very much on display in that film, too
[17:44] Howl Yifu: --yes, lots of Harvey Keitel.
[17:44] Liz Finistair: Ick, yeah.
[17:44] Freebyrd Sugarplum: So what about a female narrative voice authored by a man? Is Thelma and Louise inauthentic?
[17:44] Howl Yifu: I think the other modality of this question of resistance is perhaps genre along with authorship.
[17:44] Freebyrd Sugarplum: (Ridley Scott?
[17:44] Amelia Mistwalker: sorry--what movie?
[17:44] Howl Yifu: i.e. how does woman's voice work in horror films? pornography? comedy?
[17:45] MoBecca Podless: whats isn't more female than killing a dude whos raping your friend? right on, byrd.
[17:45] Liz Finistair: But, in the end, her "voice" is returned to a watery, almost womb-like state, while she then goes through the metaphoric rebirth, at which point Harvey Keitel teaches her language
[17:45] beth Wasp: last night i watched a 1956 movie called -a kiss before dying_, and I noticed that while the women were silenced (by murder/by men), they were the ones with evidence (but without realizing it). I'm interested in the idea--power without voice or realization--especially as voice is regained through evidence
[17:45] beth Wasp: that's a shoddy comment without movie summary...sorry
[17:45] Howl Yifu: liz: yes, and then there's the piano as stand-in for the film apparatus
[17:46] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I think that the cry Silverman talks about and the hysteria is still very much a motif
[17:46] beth Wasp: by the end of the movie, the evidence spoke for the women, and they were vindicated...don't know exactly what silverman would say...still thinking about it
[17:46] beth Wasp: "vindicated" I should say
[17:46] Slothrop Charlesworth: vindicated but dead? or did some escape?
[17:46] Liz Finistair: what was the evidence?
[17:47] beth Wasp: one dead, one alive without her sister though...
[17:47] Slothrop Charlesworth: even that movie is based on a novel by a man though right?
[17:47] Slothrop Charlesworth: Ira Levin?
[17:47] beth Wasp: evidence...letters, stuff she was wearing when mudered----yes...did not read the book
[17:48] Howl Yifu: evidence seems to differ from the body-voice complex. it persists/remains.
[17:48] Howl Yifu: this differs from humans that only speak in relation to desire and through desire.
[17:49] Howl Yifu: i.e. through the body-voice complex.
[17:49] Howl Yifu: i think evidence is similar to the naked body in the piano as well; also relates to horror movies in a way.
[17:49] beth Wasp: unless evidence captures the voice...as in letters or tapes or something though....
[17:49] Freebyrd Sugarplum: definitely
[17:49] Howl Yifu: but then its differnt, almost a reversal of the machine...
[17:50] Howl Yifu: katherine and rachel, we've drifted far from your presentations. are we missing htings?
[17:50] Howl Yifu: things?
[17:50] Liz Finistair: Yeah, evidence is, presumably, meant to be uncovered, whereas the apparatus is constantly trying to be concealed
[17:50] beth Wasp: yeah---i'm just riffing on the idea of where else women's voices might be in film
[17:50] Rachel Geraln: well this is great...different. I haven't seen any of these films...I don't do horror
[17:51] Freebyrd Sugarplum: How do you think horror fits into all this?
[17:51] Rachel Geraln: But I think we are getting at some issues...that probably can't be summed up or solved in a few hours
[17:51] Rachel Geraln: Well, Silverman focuses so much of her attention on these types of films
[17:51] Rachel Geraln: because the female is such an obvious part of it
[17:51] MoBecca Podless: theres the erotic aspect in horror--
[17:51] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I think horror comes into it with the concept of lack and castration anxiety
[17:51] Rachel Geraln: and agression and fear and submission
[17:52] Rachel Geraln: yes exactly Katerine
[17:52] Slothrop Charlesworth: any female "monsters" in horror movies?
[17:52] Freebyrd Sugarplum: yes, but now in the 21 years since she wrote it what maybe is different
[17:52] DeSelby Zarco: yeah, jason's mom
[17:52] DeSelby Zarco: mrs. vorhees
[17:52] Rachel Geraln: ...but we're still seeing remakes of these old films
[17:52] Rachel Geraln: and Scream for example
[17:52] Minksy Maven: there are female vampires in new movies
[17:52] DeSelby Zarco: but she's silent
[17:52] Rachel Geraln: I know what you did last summer
[17:52] Howl Yifu: Scream: perfect title! Acoustic mirror:.
[17:52] Minksy Maven: bride of frankenstein
[17:52] Rachel Geraln: who knows who any of the guys are in the movies...all I've ever heard about are Drew Barymore, Jennifer Love Hewit, etc.
[17:52] Liz Finistair: I watched a horror film over break...forget the name of it...but it's set in WV, and a religious couple is kidnapping hikers in the woods and forcing them to copulate to produce a baby for them
[17:53] MoBecca Podless: liz, thats amazing.
[17:53] Kathereene Kahanamoku: If the female characters/voices are used to satiate male psychosis, then the females terror represents that lack of male affirmation and security
[17:53] Slothrop Charlesworth: sounds like a family friendly hit
[17:53] Liz Finistair: it was interesting because the crazy woman tortured the girls while the crazy dude tortured the guys
[17:53] Liz Finistair: all the victims involved had the typical "cry" of the horror film, though
[17:53] Freebyrd Sugarplum: It seems to me like horror now is either extremely pro-feminist (Ginger Snaps) or the last refuge of misogyny/sexism/racism in pop film
[17:53] Howl Yifu: equal opportunity torture
[17:53] Rachel Geraln: so back to what Katerine was saying...this idea of terror could be gendered?
[17:53] MoBecca Podless: oh! blair witch
[17:53] Bhodi Silverman: Oh, I saw that Liz... and you're right, gender is constructed very strictly in it. I'm thinking of House of a 1000 Corpses, where the female voice is the one that drives the violence.
[17:54] Kathereene Kahanamoku: everyone is reduced to female in teh process of the stalking/killing
[17:54] Howl Yifu: Is the role of the body in horror - the need to open it, to reveal it - related to the body/voice relation Siliverman talks of?
[17:54] Lindsey Ireman is Offline
[17:54] Rachel Geraln: it is verymuch this masculine idea of divide and conquer!
[17:54] Sabrina Loudwater: _Mother's Day_ is a very female-driven horror film
[17:55] Howl Yifu: e.,g. if one goal of the acoustic mirror is to situate the voice in the female's body, is horror a way of localizing that voice to the scream and "extracting" it
[17:55] Kathereene Kahanamoku: all victims are made vulnerable, become emblems of the killers need for expression, and all are silenced
[17:55] MoBecca Podless: in horror films they often put the victims in the most vulnerable state--sex--before theyre killed. exposure in all aspects.
[17:55] Kathereene Kahanamoku: or most
[17:55] Amelia Mistwalker: Serial Mom--she tortured and killed daughter's exboyfriend and others
[17:55] Liz Finistair: Yes, Sandy, but it's important how it's extracted, particularly in thrasher films
[17:55] Rachel Geraln: so I think what Silverman is discussing places the women's roles in a place that their bodies cannot match their voices...because the fear is so bodily and physcologically
[17:55] Kathereene Kahanamoku: Which is gross because it gets the audience all sexually aroused before witnessing a gruesome event
[17:56] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I don't think that's the point a lot of the time
[17:56] Kathereene Kahanamoku: really uncool
[17:56] MoBecca Podless: because they prey on all of our basest emotions
[17:56] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I think, if anything, it's a morality play kind of thing
[17:56] Slothrop Charlesworth: yes, sinners need to be punished
[17:56] Liz Finistair: stabbing is super phallic (penetration, hello?), so extracting the cry is a form of reasserting the phallic power
[17:56] Slothrop Charlesworth: especially teenage sinners
[17:57] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I think the morality aspect is a way to make audiences ok with this kind of display
[17:57] Howl Yifu: OK, so a couple of questions are still floating around.
[17:57] MoBecca Podless: by that logic, bullets are phallic too.
[17:57] Liz Finistair: well, yeah
[17:57] Howl Yifu: 1) How far this complex of the acoustic mirror is still in play, given the hollywood apparatus/industry
[17:57] Lindsey Ireman is Online
[17:57] Howl Yifu: (bullets are phallic)
[17:58] Rachel Geraln: as are swords
[17:58] Rachel Geraln: as are arrows
[17:58] Howl Yifu: 2) another question is the extendability of this theory.
[17:58] Freebyrd Sugarplum: not everyone can get strangled
[17:58] Rachel Geraln: as are most weapons
[17:58] DeSelby Zarco: i think 2.) is where i'm SO lost. the lostest.
[17:58] Howl Yifu: does it apply to other films? does it apply to other media? (i.e. printed literature and woman's voice there?) does it apply to the real i.e. our bodies?
[17:58] MoBecca Podless: candlestick. lead pipe.
[17:59] Howl Yifu: in other words, how far beyond the cinematic apparatus?
[17:59] Rachel Geraln: it applies to the social construct of the audience...the theory that is
[17:59] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I don't know
[18:00] Howl Yifu: rachel: you would say it still applies today.
[18:00] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I was wondering about how the voice-over is used in television now
[18:00] Liz Finistair: I'm not sure we can say that it applies to the real, because, as Silverman poinnts out, film acts as a sort of stand-in for the real, and has then to work to cover over that gap between the filmic apparatus and the real
[18:00] Rachel Geraln: while it may be an accurate portrayal from different perspectives it is still essentially a ploy to make money
[18:00] Kathereene Kahanamoku: There are several shows that privilege the female voice/perspective
[18:00] Rachel Geraln: to inspire revenue, ticket sales, gym membersehips
[18:00] Kathereene Kahanamoku: but I don't watch enough tv
[18:00] Howl Yifu: liz - so we would have a range of film-like standins (iPhones, gps, driver's liceneses)
[18:00] Rachel Geraln: we see actresses endorsing Jenny Craig and other weight loss programs, the Bo Flex
[18:01] Howl Yifu: Kathereene: Sex in the City, for example?
[18:01] Liz Finistair: Totally
[18:01] MoBecca Podless: ug. desperate housewives? gross.
[18:01] Rachel Geraln: But isn't that even a bit of a strech....how we imagine women in NYC?
[18:01] Kathereene Kahanamoku: Gossip girl has a voice over
[18:01] Kathereene Kahanamoku: as does John and Kate plus 8
[18:01] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I don't know too many examples
[18:01] Rachel Geraln: I mean I for one don't wear designer clubs, drink martini's every day and sleep with Russian ARtists...
[18:02] Slothrop Charlesworth: kate is way more powerful than john
[18:02] MoBecca Podless: i do.
[18:02] Freebyrd Sugarplum: definitely. Sex and the city and Gossip Girl say terrible things about women, in my opinion
[18:02] Liz Finistair: ooh, that's a cool question: how does this extend to "reality" shows?
[18:02] DeSelby Zarco: ne tii
[18:02] DeSelby Zarco: ah, me too
[18:02] Rachel Geraln: but I think we like to imagine our fantasies and see them inacted on the screen
[18:02] Minksy Maven: me either....you're right James - Kate is the leader of that pack
[18:02] Howl Yifu: So, this model/theory fundamentally deals with phantasmic relations, and suggests we could discover them in a range of situations beyond the classical hollywood cinema.
[18:02] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I agree Freebyrd--but I haven't seen those shows much, just know there is a female voiceover
[18:02] Howl Yifu: reality tv is a cool thought; also music: female voice there...
[18:03] beth Wasp: i do think the acoustic mirror extends beyond film today; i like the things we're coming up with...I'm even thinking of the voice-overs in DVD sets where actors/etc. comment on action
[18:03] Liz Finistair: But wait, if this is all a marketing ploy, doesn't that mean that someone, at least on some level, understands that they also play on covering up our basic sense of lack?
[18:03] Liz Finistair: which would indicate that all forms of media outside the real have to play on the same thing in order to speak to us in some way?
[18:04] DeSelby Zarco: that seems unlikely
[18:04] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I think female artists have to work hard to have a unique/weird sounding voice
[18:04] Howl Yifu: liz: well, or that there are historical regimes of media that play the same thing or at least the same topics
[18:04] DeSelby Zarco: it seems more built in than intentional with all media
[18:04] Kathereene Kahanamoku: Because again the androgynous unfamiliar female form is desirable
[18:05] Freebyrd Sugarplum: But isn't that a form of inauthenticity? A self-consciously unique/weird voice?
[18:05] Kathereene Kahanamoku: the familiar is not as interesting
[18:05] Liz Finistair: but doesn't the historical regime of media stem from the constant need to suture over the "cut" that occurs in the production of various media?
[18:05] Kathereene Kahanamoku: if that voice is honest, it can be considered authentic as longas it is actual
[18:06] Kathereene Kahanamoku: even if that voice is not stable
[18:06] Kathereene Kahanamoku: peoples voices change over time
[18:06] Howl Yifu: liz: yes, even the historicity of the regime, i.e. the fact that we see it as a moment in a sequence of historical regimes, is suturing over the gap in being which is not historical at all
[18:06] Freebyrd Sugarplum: No, I agree. I'm just saying that going out of one's way to be unique doesn't ring true a lot of the time
[18:07] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I think that if women's voices are allowed this kind of authenticity, we may be on track to solving something of the problem presented by the acoustic mirror
[18:07] Liz Finistair: Katherine, that also brings back up the question of sound fidelity
[18:07] Howl Yifu: Freebyrd: this points to the fact that music has a level of narrative or diegesis (ficitonality) just like film
[18:07] Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
[18:07] Freebyrd Sugarplum: true, for sure
[18:07] Connected
[18:08] beth Wasp: i don't know how to understand honesty here though---perhaps we should address subjectivity instead of honesty?
[18:08] Howl Yifu: Katherine: One direction would be to explore experimental/alternative models of voice, whether by women' directors or not, and chart the "alternative" or the other cinema
[18:08] Howl Yifu: i.e. what other subject positions are there?
[18:08] Liz Finistair: that's a good idea, Beth...my brain was about to go to Butler's gender performativity, but subjectivity makes way more sense here
[18:09] Kathereene Kahanamoku: honest=genuine + actual
[18:09] Liz Finistair: actual as opposed to what?
[18:09] beth Wasp: yes, but we're dealing with constructions no matter what---
[18:09] Howl Yifu: so, how to teach a film class or a school of students how to create films with diverse subject positions
[18:09] Liz Finistair: true...
[18:10] beth Wasp: and women actors honestly portaying what male directors want...
[18:10] Liz Finistair: but the idea of "diverse" even delves into the inauthentic when you consider that eventually, it tends to stray into the "token"
[18:11] Howl Yifu: in completely improvisatoinal films or "documentary" we're still left with subject positions and how the subject speaks
[18:11] Howl Yifu: any thoughts on applying this to text? are there parralels in literary narrative/diegesis?
[18:11] Bhodi Silverman: Would diverse subject positions require more than a single director to be authentic?
[18:11] Kathereene Kahanamoku: actual having to to with time-action
[18:12] Howl Yifu: bhodi: perhaps? and then the question of the audience again - or of the technology - with dvds for example, are there different articulations there?
[18:13] Howl Yifu: i.e. with the ability to replay a scene or see it differently
[18:13] Kathereene Kahanamoku: alternative endings? commentaries? bloopers?
[18:13] Howl Yifu: exactly
[18:13] Kathereene Kahanamoku: ah
[18:13] Bhodi Silverman: Oh, what was the film that was shot in four panels, each supposedly from a different character's POV and all on screen at once?
[18:13] Howl Yifu: time code?
[18:14] Freebyrd Sugarplum: yep
[18:14] Bhodi Silverman: Yes, that's it.
[18:14] beth Wasp: for example, i think beyonce's voice is honi think there are parallels to text---I'm interested in metaphors of voice that go beyond the personal---beyond Mill's contention that poetry is overheard---this is very simplistic to me and doesn't allow for other subject positions beyond the eloquent/elevated
[18:14] Liz Finistair: I'm having a lot of trouble thinking of the female voice in a literary text (when I read it, it's really all my voice), but it does make me think of books on tape. Most readers will change their voice for different genders or even levels of femininity or masculinity
[18:14] beth Wasp: oops....my comment got messed up
[18:14] Bhodi Silverman: Was that an authentic portrayal of different POVs, or just a way to write the director's authority over each character more completely?
[18:15] beth Wasp: i think there are many women poets working ambitiously with voice in multiple, plural, and complex ways
[18:15] DeSelby Zarco: yeah, i just listened to a book that i had previously read by a male author, in a male voice (with a female narrating character), then bought the audiobook, which was in a female voice, it all sounded different
[18:15] Howl Yifu: i think we need to build a model of the authentic, that coordinates the visible body, the voice; not a single model either; but we'd need to do this to use the term
[18:16] Howl Yifu: um, getting delirious.
[18:16] Freebyrd Sugarplum: too much schnitzel?
[18:16] Rachel Geraln: or freud?
[18:16] DeSelby Zarco: all of it!
[18:17] Howl Yifu: liz and tony: suggests to me that this is best understood in relation to audible voice, not textual voice (which is too much in the head); different kidns of phantasm
[18:17] beth Wasp: gruner veltliner?
[18:17] Howl Yifu: yes too much gruner veltliner and wurst.
[18:17] Freebyrd Sugarplum: That can be your book title about your Austrian travels: "Schintzel and Freud"
[18:17] DeSelby Zarco: yes
[18:17] Liz Finistair: haha!
[18:17] Howl Yifu: and schwarzenegger. he's the most famous austrian.
[18:17] Slothrop Charlesworth: ha
[18:18] Howl Yifu: Well, do we feel like we discussed?
[18:18] DeSelby Zarco: well, we discussed--not sure what it feels like though
[18:18] Freebyrd Sugarplum: yes.
[18:18] beth Wasp: yes---though i do want to align textual voice with audible voice---(not now)---is that too ambitious?
[18:18] Howl Yifu: feels like tomorrow.
[18:18] Liz Finistair: Yeah, we discussed...but I'm with Tony.... Not sure we got anywhere
[18:19] Freebyrd Sugarplum: but I think the not-getting-anywhere is the answer
[18:19] Howl Yifu: beth: no, I think not too ambitious, but you'd need to figure out how the text creatse the body-voice relaiton or parallels it
[18:19] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I'm sorry you feel tha way
[18:19] Rachel Geraln: This book brings up a lot of issues that really cannot be resolved because we are a part of the ever changing aparatus
[18:19] Slothrop Charlesworth: sounds like a grad-school truism freebyrd
[18:19] Freebyrd Sugarplum: A little
[18:19] Howl Yifu: well, good presentations/instigations.
[18:19] beth Wasp: because i think textual voice metaphors say a lot about the history of how audible voice is consumed
[18:19] Rachel Geraln: thanks
[18:20] beth Wasp: yes..all very fun tonight----really awesome soundscape
[18:20] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I enjoyed our discussion
[18:20] Layla Afterthought: Thanks! =)
[18:20] Howl Yifu: and this book is fascinating but not perhaps the most user friendly. I think someone - Lindsey? - commented on the tone of it.
[18:20] Bhodi Silverman: Yes, awesome soundscape and instigation.
[18:20] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I thought the book was really interesting and different
[18:20] Howl Yifu: ok, I will post the transcript and send around the instructions.
[18:20] Lindsey Ireman: yes I did comment on the tone
[18:20] DeSelby Zarco: it's constantly "I'm NOT trying to say this"
[18:20] Freebyrd Sugarplum: yeah, tough read, for sure
[18:20] Lindsey Ireman: I didn't find it to be very inviting
[18:20] Amelia Mistwalker: Thanks from us!
[18:20] Slothrop Charlesworth: yeah this reading was the most dense for me
[18:20] Liz Finistair: Yeah, sorry I didn't say anything about the soundscape. It didn't load until like 20 minutes after we'd moved on in the discussion. But it was awesome.
[18:20] MB Vintner: yeah, awesome soundscape
[18:21] beth Wasp: i liked the reading...
[18:21] Kathereene Kahanamoku: enjoyed the sounds!
[18:21] Howl Yifu: Tony - yes, exactlly. that was key to the film theory discourse at the time, I think.
[18:21] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I agree, neat soundscape
[18:21] Howl Yifu: OK, I will post the transcript and send around the instructions for posting mp3s as well.
[18:21] Kathereene Kahanamoku: even the singing dancing dude who was here a minute ago
[18:21] Howl Yifu: He was so lonely.
[18:21] Liz Finistair: Aww, I missed that dude!
[18:21] Rachel Geraln: haha
[18:22] Liz Finistair: That must have been while I was crashed
[18:22] MoBecca Podless: numa numa
[18:22] Bhodi Silverman: LOL. Yeah, I wonder if we can get him to come problematize our actual classrooms.
[18:22] Howl Yifu: I think the dude was liz.
[18:22] Freebyrd Sugarplum: He also sang numa
[18:22] Liz Finistair: haha!
[18:22] Slothrop Charlesworth: burn!
[18:22] Freebyrd Sugarplum: HA
[18:22] Minksy Maven: haha a few people here in the CLC asked him to take our drink orders
[18:22] Liz Finistair: Nooo, you discovered my secret identity!
[18:22] Howl Yifu: ok. auf wiedersehen.
[18:22] Howl Yifu: See you next week.