i am a dj i am what i play :: sl chat from 3/9/09

[15:49] Howl Yifu: hi everyone
[15:49] Lindsey Ireman: alright.. back with dinner!
[15:49] Amelia Mistwalker: hi
[15:49] Freebyrd Sugarplum: Guten Aben.
[15:49] Lindsey Ireman: hi! How was the trip?
[15:49] Freebyrd Sugarplum: or is Morgen now?
[15:49] Freebyrd Sugarplum: ah
[15:49] Howl Yifu: no, it's midnite here
[15:49] Liz Finistair: Whoa! Too much volume on my end.
[15:49] Layla Afterthought: Sandy, you're the only one I can hear.
[15:49] Liz Finistair: That just scared the crap out of my cat
[15:49] Howl Yifu: yes, the sound has never worked well for me.
[15:49] Slothrop Charlesworth: haha
[15:50] Layla Afterthought: Aww, poor cat!
[15:50] Layla Afterthought: Should we just type then?
[15:50] Howl Yifu: yes. give it a schappes
[15:50] Freebyrd Sugarplum: it was me. I guess my sound works
[15:50] Howl Yifu: well, i think we should do all primary conversations via typing
[15:50] Layla Afterthought: I don't think my sound works at all.
[15:51] Howl Yifu: well, there's sound ssettings in the bottom rights of the screen
[15:51] Howl Yifu: you need to mess with them a bit to get it right.
[15:51] Howl Yifu: i've been to lovely concerts here (Second Life) but also found it really impossible to totally get the sound working
[15:52] Howl Yifu: so, I think do all primary communication via typing.
[15:52] Howl Yifu: direct us to your blog or reading / listening via this
[15:52] Layla Afterthought: Ok
[15:52] Slothrop Charlesworth: Hey!
[15:52] Howl Yifu: well, let's wait about 10 more minutes for others to arrive.
[15:52] Howl Yifu: how are things at wvu?
[15:52] Howl Yifu: new president, yes?
[15:52] Freebyrd Sugarplum: yeah, and he's an actual academic!
[15:52] Lindsey Ireman: I heard today that virginia kleist resigned from faculty senate
[15:53] MB Vintner: and not from wv
[15:53] Freebyrd Sugarplum: unlike that last fella
[15:53] Lindsey Ireman: so thats big news I suppose. heh
[15:53] Howl Yifu: i think he's good. --> oo hadn't heard about virginia.
[15:53] Howl Yifu: she's a good person. i wonder what's up with that?
[15:53] Howl Yifu: here there's much mourning of the recently dead far right politician - or rather, he's mourned where i am and scorned as a neo-nazi in the rest of the country
[15:54] Lindsey Ireman: that I dont know. I just heard it via grapevine
[15:54] Howl Yifu: hmm.
[15:54] Layla Afterthought: (when everyone is typing at the same time like this, it kind of looks like the zombie apocalipse.... just sayin')
[15:54] Amelia Mistwalker: sandy. nick hales here. any special setup required for audio chat.
[15:54] Howl Yifu: nick, are you wearing a dress?
[15:54] Amelia Mistwalker: or do i just need to turn it on
[15:54] Layla Afterthought: Haha!
[15:54] Amelia Mistwalker: i am
[15:55] Amelia Mistwalker: nick crossdresser
[15:55] Howl Yifu: - well, you need to mess with the controls on the lower right of the screen
[15:55] Howl Yifu: there's a button that will set you to do audio whenever you speak or, alternatively, only when you press it.
[15:55] Howl Yifu: but, again, as stated earlier, it's sort of hit or miss.
[15:55] Freebyrd Sugarplum: might we have a run-through of who people actually are? I can tell for some, but obviously not others
[15:56] Amelia Mistwalker: i heard you sandy. hit and miss as you said
[15:56] MB Vintner: MB is Matt Buchanan
[15:56] Howl Yifu: Sure, we should all say who we are. But also, good to have a persona/avatar. We should all be DJ Something...
[15:57] Slothrop Charlesworth: James here
[15:57] Rachel Geraln: Hahah. This is rachel
[15:57] DeSelby Zarco: I'll be DJ Jujube
[15:57] DeSelby Zarco: i'm tony
[15:57] Layla Afterthought: I'm layla, obviously, and evenyone in a pink dress is instigating! Heh.
[15:57] Freebyrd Sugarplum: Dj Freestyle Sugarbear
[15:57] Minksy Maven: This is Mary
[15:57] Freebyrd Sugarplum: (and jason freeman)
[15:57] Lindsey Ireman: Lindsey here of course :-)
[15:57] Howl Yifu: got it. the instigation clones.
[15:57] MoBecca Podless: rebecca
[15:57] Liz Finistair: Liz here, evidently
[15:58] Slothrop Charlesworth: DJ Mute
[15:58] MRF Hammerthall: Martina
[15:58] Howl Yifu: martina - excellent outfit
[15:58] Howl Yifu: i think everyone is here! how many are in the clc?
[15:59] Minksy Maven: 2
[15:59] Howl Yifu: ok.
[15:59] Minksy Maven: plus Nick
[15:59] DeSelby Zarco: how do you sit?
[15:59] Howl Yifu: click on something (right click) and there's a sit option
[15:59] Bhodi Silverman is Online
[15:59] Layla Afterthought: right click on a spot
[15:59] Howl Yifu: good to keep text short - a few lines or sentences.
[16:00] Howl Yifu: this keeps / avoids too much overlap.
[16:00] Howl Yifu: some overlap is fine, natch, it's in the nature of the medium
[16:00] Layla Afterthought: It's kinda hard to type and keep up with what's ebing said
[16:00] Howl Yifu: yes. some of it is just getting used to it.
[16:00] Layla Afterthought: Hehe, I'm sure we'll be fine
[16:01] Howl Yifu: ok. well, you're there, i'm here, we're all in this other place
[16:01] Howl Yifu: just reviewing: next week is spring break, correct?
[16:01] Layla Afterthought: Yep!
[16:01] Lindsey Ireman: correct
[16:01] Liz Finistair: yep
[16:01] Howl Yifu: ok. so then back in two weeks after this.
[16:01] Rachel Geraln: yep
[16:01] Howl Yifu: now, let's see how this goes. i'll say a few things, then turn it over to layla and amelia.
[16:02] Amelia Mistwalker: ok
[16:02] Howl Yifu: feel free to interrupt if there's really confusion - we'll work it out.
[16:02] Howl Yifu: also, you can im another person/avatar and this will break in on the screen for thim -
[16:02] Howl Yifu: a good way to tell me if somethings awry, etc.
[16:03] Freebyrd Sugarplum: how do you sit if you don't a right click? (mac user here)
[16:03] Howl Yifu: click on communicate (lower left) and then im
[16:03] Howl Yifu: dunno on the mac
[16:03] Howl Yifu: anyone know?
[16:03] MoBecca Podless: the command/apple button
[16:03] MoBecca Podless: and click
[16:03] DeSelby Zarco: (i tried ctrl click, nope)
[16:03] Freebyrd Sugarplum: thanks
[16:03] Howl Yifu: well, you look artful standing.
[16:03] Howl Yifu: i love the way the arms go up before sitting.
[16:04] Howl Yifu: well, let's talk for a bit about dj spooky and then about final essays, ja?
[16:04] Lindsey Ireman: sounds good
[16:04] Layla Afterthought: Alright, do I just go ahead ans start with DJ Spooky?
[16:05] Howl Yifu: i'm interested in how this book brings together a certain number of the topics discussed so far: citation, noise, literariness, the apparatus, models of history, the role of originality...
[16:05] Howl Yifu: - just a moment Layla -
[16:05] Layla Afterthought: k
[16:05] Howl Yifu: and interested in the format of the book - and how it interfers/contribites to theses topics.
[16:06] Howl Yifu: But yeah.: let the instigators go. Layla and or Amelia? And feel free to direct us to your blogs -
[16:06] Layla Afterthought: I'll go ahead and start.
[16:06] Layla Afterthought: Here's the link to my blog
[16:06] Layla Afterthought: oh, can't post links...
[16:06] Layla Afterthought: laylaalbedawi.blogspot.com
[16:06] Howl Yifu: yes, should be able to. but it's on the bloglist.
[16:07] Layla Afterthought: Alright, so I talk a lot on my blog about what the book actuay is, or is supposed to be.
[16:07] Layla Afterthought: I was curious what kind of general opinions there were about it....
[16:07] Layla Afterthought: so what better place to look than Amazon reviews!
[16:08] Layla Afterthought: Anyway, you get people saying the book is anything from a text book, to "poetry" or
[16:08] Layla Afterthought: some other form of art/collage, to complete nonsense....
[16:08] Layla Afterthought: one person said it was just extensive liner notes for the CD, and that it shuld best be ignored, heh.
[16:09] Layla Afterthought: I wanted to start by asking what exactly you thought the book was.
[16:09] Layla Afterthought: And whether you think the book supplements the CD or the other way around.
[16:09] Layla Afterthought: Or both.
[16:09] Liz Finistair: I'm going to go with both.
[16:09] Bhodi Silverman: That's a really great question.
[16:09] DeSelby Zarco: I never got my hands on the cd, but the book seemed to outline a philosophy
[16:09] Slothrop Charlesworth: I felt like the book is a manifesto in defense of sampling
[16:10] Liz Finistair: It seems to me that the book and CD are his theories in action
[16:10] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I think it's interesting that the library of congress classification is that it's "technology and civilization"
[16:10] Layla Afterthought: I agree with the manifesto
[16:10] Lindsey Ireman: hmm...I think they operate best together. I personally have read it three times. And the best occasion reading it was while listening to the cd
[16:10] Amelia Mistwalker: yes, what slothrop said
[16:10] Freebyrd Sugarplum: that it's so encompassing supports the idea of it being a manifesto
[16:10] Layla Afterthought: I read it before listening to the Cd.
[16:10] Rachel Geraln: Yes I agree with Lindsey
[16:10] Howl Yifu: i grew frustrated with the noise but high on the riffs in the book
[16:10] Rachel Geraln: I started out just reading it and then I put the cd in
[16:10] Amelia Mistwalker: but i think that this book could apply to many other works of Dj Spooky's
[16:11] Layla Afterthought: Yes.
[16:11] Bhodi Silverman: I had just assumed, because of my own interest in text, that the book was primary... but now that you bring it up, I see how this mirrors the way in which sampling really engages the listener/reader as part of the process. What signified to me may not be what signified to someone else.
[16:11] Howl Yifu: is the cd sequenced tothe book?
[16:11] Howl Yifu: i mean, how closely does it follow the book?
[16:12] Liz Finistair: It seems that they're both ways of showing how older "texts" of any form can be rethought (remixed, he would say), and made into something newly artistic
[16:12] Lindsey Ireman: ya know, I didnt pay THAT much attention...as in trying to match tracks to chapters or anything. I'm generally probably too slow a reader for a real matchup.
[16:12] Rachel Geraln: I didn't feel like it followed it that closely but when I would stop to think about what he was saying in the text I would get a different perspective listening to the lyric/rythem of the music
[16:12] Layla Afterthought: I tried finding stuff on the CD that he referenced in the book, but I don't think there was much, if any.
[16:13] Howl Yifu: So, the book is an example of the cd and vice versa, in a way; the songs are maybe not examples of what he references but do the same thing.
[16:13] Howl Yifu: loved those pants
[16:13] Layla Afterthought: Haha!
[16:13] Lindsey Ireman: haha
[16:13] Amelia Mistwalker: I can't tell if the cd and book are truly related...I mean, the cd could be listened to without the text, obviously
[16:14] Howl Yifu: and the book w/out hte cd
[16:14] Layla Afterthought: I think both work on their own, but both are in a way examples of the same thing.
[16:14] Howl Yifu: im interested in DeZelby's notion that this enacts a philosophy
[16:14] MoBecca Podless: i agree with layla--and i can't imagine that the cd is put together without thought
[16:14] Freebyrd Sugarplum: At least from how Spooky describes his own music in the printed text, it seems that he's trying to do the same things in his music
[16:14] MoBecca Podless: w/o some order
[16:14] Howl Yifu: (note: all the conversation will be saved and sente around later)
[16:14] Layla Afterthought: A related question I had: is the book successful at "translating" DJing and sampling into written/graphic format?
[16:14] Lindsey Ireman: agreed. there was obviously great care in the production of the book and the way the cd was inserted into the book as well as with tying in graphic design
[16:14] DeSelby Zarco: I know it wasn't the ideal situaion (reading the book w/o the cd), but I never felt like I needed the text
[16:14] Lindsey Ireman: I felt it better to approach them all as parts of a whole
[16:15] DeSelby Zarco: DeSelby the me? or DeSelby the philopher?
[16:15] Amelia Mistwalker: Right, reading the book after listening to the cd makes more sense to me
[16:15] Freebyrd Sugarplum: for sure, Amelia
[16:15] Rachel Geraln: I think it is intersting though, the argument that he makes for remixes and then the idea of including an actual cd seems so finite
[16:15] Bhodi Silverman: I agree the book works on it's own... if you've already been exposed to the music. The imaginary reader, though, who had not... I think that reader, who Miller would say wasn't "literate" in music... would need the CD
[16:15] Howl Yifu: both. well, what did you feel it informed you of?
[16:15] Rachel Geraln: final*
[16:15] Slothrop Charlesworth: Maybe he wants us to sample from his samples
[16:15] Howl Yifu: Rachel: do you mean this as a limitation?
[16:16] Layla Afterthought: I like that he didn't give instructions or suggestions whether to read first or listen first.
[16:16] Rachel Geraln: yes a litlte
[16:16] Howl Yifu: and lindsey: we definitely should talk about the role of the format.
[16:16] DeSelby Zarco: The thought of taking pieces--the way that it each piece (song, text, book) is a collection of smaller things made to be rearranged
[16:16] Slothrop Charlesworth: reminds me of the poems taken from novels (forget the name)
[16:17] Howl Yifu: the book seemed messier to me than the cd, looser, but is that a function of the tradition of books as being more closed?
[16:17] Liz Finistair: It can't be finite, though, just because it's packaged up. Otherwise, songs would never be made. The packaging just seems like a brief stopping off point before someone else, or the original author comes back to it.
[16:17] Howl Yifu: ooh, nice liz
[16:17] Lindsey Ireman: do you mean messy in style or in actual publication. There were seval typos I noticed
[16:17] Rachel Geraln: that's a good point but I think alot of what he is thinking and aluding to is the dynamic...I think it could even tie into some of what Buroughs said
[16:17] Lindsey Ireman: as I just made a typo myself
[16:17] Layla Afterthought: To me it seemed that you can take any fragment of the text and any track on the CD and rearrange them however you like.
[16:17] Howl Yifu: that's the editor in you. do djs make typos?
[16:18] Layla Afterthought: Speaking of Typos: he likes to miss-spell German names, heh.
[16:18] DeSelby Zarco: It's messy all around, every other page to have those not very catchy catch phrases
[16:18] Rachel Geraln: and just the idea of putting it all together and not letting it breathe and move and live with the readers seemed .. I don't know... sad
[16:18] Lindsey Ireman: haha I don't know.
[16:18] Minksy Maven: DJs may make typos (think they do), but we may not know it as we listen.
[16:18] Amelia Mistwalker: this dj made typos!
[16:18] Howl Yifu: but i found the cd familiar, whereas the book was less so, felt almost unreadable; not always in an interesting way
[16:18] DeSelby Zarco: this dj be warren g
[16:19] Freebyrd Sugarplum: Yeah, just as a real music afficianado would recognize "typos" in dj-ing, I think we're probably going to notice more in print
[16:19] Lindsey Ireman: I agree. some of it was trying for a kind of freestyle (perhaps?) that fell short stylistically for me
[16:19] Howl Yifu: rachel - can you say more? do you mean the cd was really closed off? how could it be different? perhaps mp3s the reader / listener could mix?
[16:19] DeSelby Zarco: he seemed to have a desire to take on that dj voice. i joked with matt that he actually says "flip the script" more than once. it's like a parody of that voice
[16:19] Rachel Geraln: I felt like it would have worked better with an online text maybe
[16:19] Layla Afterthought: I found it very readable, once I reconciled myself with the fact that maybe not all of it needs to be "understood" in a traditional sense.
[16:20] Rachel Geraln: one that could be responded too and shared...in connection to the music
[16:20] Howl Yifu: - layla, like this chat!
[16:20] Layla Afterthought: I think he's just going for a general feel of the text....
[16:20] Layla Afterthought: Haha, yes.
[16:20] MoBecca Podless: but isn't djing playing outside the rules--making us hear what wouldn't else be heard? typos are typos becuase theyre based on established rules. apples and oranges.
[16:20] Liz Finistair: That's an interesting point, Rachel. he is all about technology, and to have something so analog seems odd in conjunction with his philosophy
[16:20] Howl Yifu: Rachel - this question of sharing is vital.
[16:20] Layla Afterthought: You just pick up.... what you pick up.
[16:20] Rachel Geraln: so that as topics, ideas, groups shared it moved and swayed and worked more like a sampling
[16:20] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I don't know that Spooky would have wanted an even less conventional printed text. He writes about how much respect he has for the printed word, its history, etc
[16:20] Rachel Geraln: that's true
[16:21] Slothrop Charlesworth: interesting too that he seems against academia but published this through a university press
[16:21] Howl Yifu: Layla: so, we need to move - as critics - between our desire for meaning and the overall vibe of the thing
[16:21] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I know!
[16:21] DeSelby Zarco: and he works at one too, right?
[16:21] Howl Yifu: slothrop: yes, i find this series ("pamphlet") a bit trite
[16:21] Freebyrd Sugarplum: he seems to eschew the academy so much, but that seems like his target audience, too
[16:21] Layla Afterthought: Pretty much. One of the people on Amazon claimed that if you spend enough time with the text, it'l all make sense.... I think it doesn't all HAVE to make sense.
[16:22] Layla Afterthought: Just like you can like a song without understanding all of the lyrics.
[16:22] Howl Yifu: Layla: A kind of appropriateness to this kind of blog response, because the amazon reviews have a sort of collaged, dj-d, sample culture response to things - perhaps in the best and worst way...?
[16:22] Layla Afterthought: Replications as reply?
[16:22] Slothrop Charlesworth: and the reviews allow for inclusivity, all can write reviews, not just those with publishing power
[16:22] Howl Yifu: hmm, say more layla.
[16:22] DeSelby Zarco: and yeah, audience is key, if just bought a mix for something to dance to, i'm not sure how receptive to the accompanying manifesto i'd be
[16:23] Howl Yifu: slothrop - yes, this goes to the ethics and limits of sampling/free cutlure
[16:23] Layla Afterthought: I thought it interesting to see replications as replies... it implies that no copy is ever the same as the original...
[16:23] Layla Afterthought: there is always automatically something new in it, responding to the original.
[16:23] Howl Yifu: I think MattB made a similar point in his blog.
[16:24] Layla Afterthought: And just as there is no 100% copy of something, there is also nothing that is 100% original.
[16:24] Howl Yifu: or rather, he asked after this replicative difference.
[16:24] Howl Yifu: - liz as well
[16:24] MB Vintner: yeah, and i think i answered my question about non-sampled music, that spooky sees it as citation and synthesis
[16:24] Howl Yifu: Layla - or everyone - on this notion of sampling or replication, are there things that can't be sampled?
[16:25] MB Vintner: even though it's not directly sampled
[16:25] Slothrop Charlesworth: silence?
[16:25] Howl Yifu: Matt: you were dealing wiht music that doesn't use sampling - which is interesting - raises the question of whether there's a kind of value involved here (if you don't sample you suck...)
[16:25] Layla Afterthought: As to silence: didn't Cage sue some guy for making a "silent" track?
[16:25] DeSelby Zarco: there's plenty that would be difficult to sample
[16:25] Liz Finistair: define "can't." If you mean legally, sure. Technologically, potentially.
[16:25] Bhodi Silverman: I think that question is really problematized by current work in physics, which suggests that everything is a holograph, thus recorded, thus sample-able if the technology existed?
[16:26] Minksy Maven: so far, i think you can sample everything, including silence
[16:26] Howl Yifu: liz: so it might be that only the law holds together the analog/continuum that can't be sampled
[16:26] Liz Finistair: There are things that are so impromptu and dependent on that moment's experience that they can't be recaptured, but the essense or feeling of them can
[16:26] Layla Afterthought: I think I agree with Mary.
[16:26] Howl Yifu: bhodi is my dharma
[16:26] Bhodi Silverman: It also suggests the possibility of perfect fidelity, which also problematizes things. Ha ha!
[16:27] Howl Yifu: so, if everything is samplable technically, if not legally, then intellectual property becomes a crucial questoin, yes?
[16:27] Slothrop Charlesworth: Yes. I questioned this in my blog.
[16:27] DeSelby Zarco: i did the same--more about WHY we care so much
[16:27] DeSelby Zarco: in defense of IP
[16:28] Howl Yifu: why do we care?
[16:28] Layla Afterthought: Yes, but if we go with the idea that nothing is ever an exact copy of what came before, but instead something completely new, that would also get rid of the concept of plagiarism, right?
[16:28] Lindsey Ireman: definitely. There is an ethics involved in sampling for sure. What can be creatively claimed and how do the boundaries of authorship change
[16:28] Slothrop Charlesworth: Seems more acceptable to sample sounds than to sample written words
[16:28] Lindsey Ireman: but this seems more of a problem in western culture...the idea of ownership.authorship than in other cultures
[16:28] Minksy Maven: absolutely. and perhaps as much as people want and possible deserve IP rights, we can't irgnore intertextuality
[16:28] Liz Finistair: but doesn't context and intent make a difference here, too?
[16:28] Layla Afterthought: I like DJing, because sampling is expected.
[16:29] Layla Afterthought: It's pretty much a given.
[16:29] Bhodi Silverman: I think that, culturally, this is being addressed by folks like the EFF and the people behind the Creative Commons movement. What does it mean to "own" a piece of the culture?
[16:29] Liz Finistair: If the intent is to pass something off as yours, that becomes an ethical problem, too.
[16:29] Howl Yifu: note: the difference between sizes of samples. 1) i sample/copy the actual words.
[16:29] Howl Yifu: 2) i connote or invoke.
[16:29] Layla Afterthought: So you don't really HAVE to explicitly say that it's not all "original"
[16:29] Liz Finistair: But if the intent is to create something new from what's already come before it, then it becomes a question of artistic value
[16:29] Howl Yifu: the problem is the size of the frame here.
[16:29] DeSelby Zarco: it's like that Lego metaphor, i guess the block size matters
[16:29] Amelia Mistwalker: my blog's a bit about what layla said that this helps get rid of the concept of plagiarism
[16:29] Howl Yifu: the problem of the size of the frame is tied to "literature."
[16:29] Howl Yifu: literature is where it's not clear the size of the frame.
[16:30] Howl Yifu: it may be very small or very large but it is fuzzy.
[16:30] Lindsey Ireman: I just like the notion of "sampling" being used as a word rather than "stealing". there are musical lawsuits all the time for something something too "similar" to another song, but sampling gets by.
[16:30] DeSelby Zarco: but i liked the connection that ALL literature is copied on some level, we'll sample, at a minimum, words from a larger piece, even characters
[16:30] MB Vintner: kenneth goldsmith took a day's new york times and made it into a book
[16:30] Layla Afterthought: Because sampling gives credit?
[16:30] MoBecca Podless: sampling is usually a kind of tribute--not a rip off
[16:30] Howl Yifu: intertextuality: the crucial thing about it is the point where it becomes transtextuality - not where did this come from but it came from nowhere
[16:30] MB Vintner: just typed it up
[16:30] Slothrop Charlesworth: and we're taught to "sample" in scholarly essays, really we're made to in the name of "research"
[16:30] Amelia Mistwalker: yes. lawrence lessig in his book remix says that the copyright laws are a bit outdated
[16:31] Howl Yifu: yes, goldsmith follows a practice of noncreativity
[16:31] Amelia Mistwalker: (his is the quote on the back of Rhythm Science
[16:31] Amelia Mistwalker: )
[16:31] Howl Yifu: if we imagine a totally sampled culture -- everything free -- what are the ethics? is there any attribution? is attirbution the answer?
[16:32] Howl Yifu: (i.e. how do we mediate between the "good" thing of sharing)
[16:32] Slothrop Charlesworth: you have an ethical responsibility to create something worthwhile? beyond that I can't see much
[16:32] Howl Yifu: (and the good thing of wanting to create)
[16:32] MB Vintner: by creative commons work it seems to be that attribution is a big part
[16:32] DeSelby Zarco: good answer slothrop, haha
[16:32] Bhodi Silverman: Sampled or samble-able? Because I tink you could argue that all culture is totally "sampled" from it's own history?
[16:32] Howl Yifu: yes, mb that seems to be lessig's answer
[16:32] Howl Yifu: Bhodi - this would bring us back to literature as well.
[16:33] Sit by pool(female model setup ) RED: snarkl Aeon, say '/1 Hide' to hide me, or '/1 Show' to make me show. Or just right-click and sit on me to use me.
[16:33] Howl Yifu: another thought: is the point where I say "this is sampled" or this is the sample
[16:33] Howl Yifu: is that actually the sample? or is that an act of attribution/power on me part? i'm invoking culture at that moment?
[16:33] Amelia Mistwalker: It seems like attribution is polite. Sampling would be the polite thing to do (like now you can steal).
[16:33] Liz Finistair: But doesn't pointing out the sample diminish the point of the larger work it's sampled into?
[16:34] Howl Yifu: ---> i'm not sure what will happen if you mess with that snarkl aeoen
[16:34] MoBecca Podless: he frightens me.
[16:34] Layla Afterthought: Other culture have a different understanding of plagiarism. In Asian countries, it's considered a "good thing" to use other people's concepts to make your own points, without citation.
[16:34] DeSelby Zarco: In a way, i think so, liz. like when you watch a girltalk video, and you can visually see all the smaller pieces, it takes a bit away
[16:34] Freebyrd Sugarplum: i don't necessarily think it diminishes the original work, liz
[16:34] Liz Finistair: Isn't part of what Spooky was saying that half the fun is finding the meaning for yourself? And that would indicate a need to only give credit but not specifically locate the credited thing
[16:34] Lindsey Ireman: right layla thats what i was getting at too
[16:34] Layla Afterthought: so.... does that mean that over time, things like sampling might change the way we think about intellectual property?
[16:34] Howl Yifu: ownership is culturally and historically circumscribed - medially as well, if we believe ong
[16:35] Howl Yifu: james - can you say more about how you see sampling relating to literary practice, either authorship or criticism?
[16:35] Layla Afterthought: In the book he quotes Goethe saying something about how his work is influenced by the voices of hundreds of others...
[16:35] Amelia Mistwalker: yes, but I was really annoyed that I had trouble figuring out what samples were coming from where. Attribution is nice so that you can find the original samples again (like a works cited page with a research paper and in text citations)
[16:36] Howl Yifu: or think of whitman: "i am large, i contain multitudes"
[16:36] Layla Afterthought: in Goethe's times, it was commonly accepted to take plays from other countries (France etc) and "adapt" them.
[16:36] Howl Yifu: amelia - say more.
[16:36] Layla Afterthought: And those works were counted as "originals"
[16:36] DeSelby Zarco: and biggie is also large
[16:36] Slothrop Charlesworth: I think Spooky links musical sampling to sampling in literature. He also says sampling is writing.
[16:36] Howl Yifu: the comfort in sources or attribution is the comfort of presence, of the object, of the self
[16:37] Howl Yifu: - think also of the name "dj spooky" as a literary persona, pen name, replication
[16:37] Amelia Mistwalker: Mary's elaborating now...
[16:38] Amelia Mistwalker: (we're both in the CLC)
[16:38] Freebyrd Sugarplum: yeah, because he even samples his name partly from something Burroughs wrote
[16:38] Bhodi Silverman: Who was the poet who wrote in multiple voices, none his own? I can't believe I can't think of him...
[16:38] Howl Yifu: ok, mary bring it on.
[16:38] snarkl Aeon: Look at my pants
[16:38] Howl Yifu: bhodi: pessoa. portuguese poet.
[16:38] Howl Yifu: some of the personas were english language.
[16:38] Howl Yifu: nice pants
[16:38] Bhodi Silverman: THank you. That's it.
[16:38] Amelia Mistwalker: sort of like creative commons (there are different licenses, but to my understanding, you are ALLOWED to do more with it)
[16:38] Minksy Maven: i think Amelia's getting at the fact that attribution helps with research and broadening the knowledge base, but we can do that without the limits of IP rights. In other words, Amelia and I are thinking that it should be about sharing knowledge, not necessarily about rights, power, money.
[16:39] Liz Finistair: But doesn't that also come down to individuality in a capitalistic society?
[16:39] Amelia Mistwalker: IP=intellectual property (copyright, trademarks, etc)
[16:39] Liz Finistair: Even Spooky's got undertones of this when he talks about needing to do something to make cash when he was living at the Gas Station
[16:39] Slothrop Charlesworth: Couldn't getting rid of attribution actually limit the knowledge available rather than make it more available?
[16:40] Howl Yifu: so, amelia and mary, vis a vis liz: is there a sharing that doesn't imply subjects in a differential relation?
[16:40] Bhodi Silverman: I think there is also something of wanting to retain "ownership" in Miller's insistance on the idea of the artist... the privelaging of the mixer.
[16:40] Howl Yifu: liz - yes, totally. isn't this book about inflating the persona "dj spooky"?
[16:41] Howl Yifu: he may like to share but he's the biggest sharere on the block
[16:41] DeSelby Zarco: well it's stil a skill
[16:41] Howl Yifu: hm, DeSelby: say more?
[16:41] DeSelby Zarco: there's the argument that everyone can do it, but it won't always be good stuff
[16:42] Howl Yifu: like the butcher in the taoist parable
[16:42] Minksy Maven: we don't want to get rid of attribution (giving credit), but we think it'd be ok to get rid of the capitalistic power that we're used to going along with that attribution.
[16:42] DeSelby Zarco: i don't know this parable, but sure
[16:42] Amelia Mistwalker: multiple people have said the same thing--helping to locate one source of info could be helpful in someone's research/own knowledge base
[16:42] Bhodi Silverman: But what is the value of criticism... of good vs. bad "stuff"... if the medium is intended to bring the interior into the public?
[16:42] Howl Yifu: it's a question of making the right cut
[16:42] Liz Finistair: But if everyone really could do it, wouldn't it likely become hyper-commodified, just like the homogenous pop culture Spooky rails against?
[16:42] Amelia Mistwalker: yeah--like having to pay to use someone else's pictures or ideas
[16:42] Howl Yifu: bhodi - do you mean we would no longer have a critical culture? is this more ore less where the amazon reviews are at, for example?
[16:43] MRF Hammerthall: Get lost!
[16:44] Bhodi Silverman: Sandy, I think there is at least the question of why we would WANT a critical structure when we are talking about sampling and bringing the interior into shared space?
[16:45] Howl Yifu: this points, i think , to dj spooky's utopianism. where does he see us going?
[16:45] Howl Yifu: and is it coherent (thinking of lindsey's blog, which pointed out contradictions)
[16:45] Howl Yifu: - and liz's blog as well.
[16:46] Lindsey Ireman: I certainly question its coherency, but then again this could go back to a sampling culture. Its like assembling various pieces, or parts of the multitude, to try and make new meaning. But the pieces don't necessarily come together or link well between chapters.
[16:46] Howl Yifu: - this is the pause, the slow song after the house beat
[16:47] Howl Yifu: Lindsey: in your blog I saw you negotiating between Spoooky's notion of a total renewal and of sources.
[16:47] Howl Yifu: It may be, however, that this paradox between source and copy, whcih layla has suggested needs to be discplaced -
[16:47] Howl Yifu: is only paradoxicaly if we hold onto notions of ownership
[16:48] Howl Yifu: but: the contradiction Lindsey points to is the contradiction of history.
[16:48] Howl Yifu: I'm thinking also of Liz's blog, which addressed spooky's techno-utopianism.
[16:49] DeSelby Zarco: i haven't had a chance to read the other blogs--can somone elaborate?
[16:49] Howl Yifu: - i.e. the repeated claims that the new sampling culture would correct difficiencies in the past culture - also deficiencies in ourself -
[16:49] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I think Sit sort of seems to be a hard-won utopianism he's talking about though, right?
[16:49] Liz Finistair: Well, part of what I was trying to get at was that you can't simultaneously live the technology and be 100% aware of the fact that you're living the technology
[16:49] Slothrop Charlesworth: so only in hindsight then?
[16:50] Howl Yifu: Freebyrd: like the idea of hard won utopianism. say more?
[16:50] Howl Yifu: liz: yes, I think liz in her blog was questoining spooky's claim that we will increasingly "engage in soundmaking technologies that are as ingrained as the need for air"
[16:51] Howl Yifu: she wanted to know how could do this - spooky suggests it involves activly participating in something that is part of our essence as humans...
[16:51] Liz Finistair: He seems to want us to be constantly critical of stagnation in both the self and the culture, but at the same time, he wants us to feel the ability to sample from historical contexts
[16:51] Freebyrd Sugarplum: well, the quote that sums it up is about how we have the ability (even the responsibility) to reshape the world no matter how tightly conglomerates and older artists try to control these processes
[16:51] DeSelby Zarco: i think you're right liz, but I also think that it's hard not to be aware of the technologies we have--especially in the presence of those that don't
[16:51] Howl Yifu: Or, we might ask, surely we are already participating in our essence by definition? Aren't claims that we are somehow apart from what we are theoretical claims that fabricate a history?
[16:52] Howl Yifu: freebyrd: yes, good citation. suggests that there is always a utopian potential.
[16:53] Liz Finistair: There's always a utopian potential, but there's never a utopia. That's the problematic thing about Spooky's idea.
[16:53] Liz Finistair: At what point does his work become the conglomerate that needs to be overturned?
[16:53] Freebyrd Sugarplum: good question
[16:53] Slothrop Charlesworth: maybe as soon as it's published, he's made it fair game
[16:53] Howl Yifu: so: it owuld be interesting to figure to tie utopianiam to sampling in music and in literary citation
[16:54] Howl Yifu: in other words, if i cite - and i always am - i am affirming the potential of literature to say something different and to repeat.
[16:54] Freebyrd Sugarplum: but it seems like he'd be more than happy to have someone try to overthrow him
[16:54] Howl Yifu: utopian without utopia.
[16:54] Layla Afterthought: yeah, freebyrd
[16:54] Howl Yifu: - freebyrd: you win me over man. i find him a bit more self-important at times.
[16:55] Layla Afterthought: and although he says that all critiques end up being sucked up by what they're critiquing, he seems to exclude himself from this.
[16:55] Freebyrd Sugarplum: No, he is at times. I'd just be interested in reading something he writes 30 years from now when he IS that "older generation of artists"
[16:55] Layla Afterthought: Well, one of the amazon people called the book full of "self-referrential boasting".....
[16:55] Liz Finistair: But would he be more than willing to admit that his work has become conglomerate? Wouldn't that require the kind of pop culture academic criticism he condemns?
[16:56] Layla Afterthought: but..... how self-referrential can boasting be, when all your work is full of samples of other epople's work?
[16:56] Howl Yifu: rachel made excellent points about his use of personas. this allows willful gathering of cultural power but also play.
[16:56] Lindsey Ireman: his self-righteousness is on the cover of the book itself. he doesnt just use a moniker, but his real name as well. He claims both identities and seems to place himself at once in a freeware open source utopianism through that moniker, but in a captialist culture by crediting his given name as well
[16:56] Liz Finistair: Ooooh, awesome point, Layla
[16:56] Howl Yifu: perhaps we should all adopt personas - use them to promote ourselves - use them to write differnet kinds of things
[16:56] Bhodi Silverman: Lindsey, great point.
[16:56] Rachel Geraln: i would like to see what those personas would create at least
[16:57] Minksy Maven: if he can, we can. it sounds like fun.
[16:57] Howl Yifu: another interesting practice is "public use personas" like Luther Blissett.
[16:57] Howl Yifu: This is a invented persona that anyone can adopt for different purposes.
[16:57] Bhodi Silverman: Or like Howl Yifu?
[16:57] Layla Afterthought: About what Minksy said: did anyone look up erratum errata online?
[16:57] Slothrop Charlesworth: haha
[16:57] Howl Yifu: heh
[16:58] Freebyrd Sugarplum: Or Alan Smithee
[16:58] Howl Yifu: yes, or ned ludd
[16:58] Howl Yifu: say you want to do something and fear political repercussions - you use such a personal
[16:58] Howl Yifu: um, layla and amelia: did you want to say more?
[16:59] Howl Yifu: and/or direct us to listen/view?
[16:59] DeSelby Zarco: it's on layla's blog (it's diorienting me now)
[16:59] Howl Yifu: should we watch it layla? (what is it?)
[16:59] Layla Afterthought: Well I looked at the errata erratum thing online
[16:59] Layla Afterthought: before you go there, I can explain a bit:
[16:59] Howl Yifu: please.
[17:00] Layla Afterthought: he mentions it in the book.
[17:00] Layla Afterthought: Basically, it's a visual/sound collage type thing
[17:00] Layla Afterthought: and you as a viewer/listener can control it.
[17:00] Layla Afterthought: It takes a while to figure out.
[17:00] Layla Afterthought: The visuals are from the original piece by Duchamps
[17:00] Layla Afterthought: And the words are also Duchamps.
[17:01] Layla Afterthought: DJ Spooky put everything together with a beat.
[17:01] Howl Yifu: got it. take a look now if you haven't
[17:01] Layla Afterthought: But then the viewer/listener gets to rearrange the visuals/sounds however he/she likes.
[17:01] Layla Afterthought: I played around with it for a while...
[17:01] Layla Afterthought: and at first "my" stuff sounded pretty bad.
[17:01] Howl Yifu: (it's slow to load for me here in the alps)
[17:01] Layla Afterthought: But after a while it all kind of sounds equally alright.
[17:02] Liz Finistair: Sorry to interupt, but just a quick question: did Spooky design the interactive website thing? Or did someone else do that?
[17:02] Howl Yifu: no, layla: you need to say "DJ Layla's stuff sounded excellent"
[17:02] Slothrop Charlesworth: ha
[17:02] Layla Afterthought: Hahahaha! Yes.
[17:02] Freebyrd Sugarplum: that's right
[17:02] Bhodi Silverman laughs.
[17:02] Layla Afterthought: I'll be releasing the album soon.
[17:02] Howl Yifu: this is promotion/symbolic capital. make the claim.
[17:02] Layla Afterthought: So in a way, DJ Spooky makes all of us "artists"
[17:02] DeSelby Zarco: yeah, the literal "spinning" and ability to relocate the spinning seems to fit his ideas
[17:03] Layla Afterthought: HIS contribution is handing us the utensils.
[17:03] Howl Yifu: spin - spin. nice!
[17:03] Layla Afterthought: The original sounds and visuals are not his, either.
[17:03] Layla Afterthought: Haha, yeah
[17:03] Layla Afterthought: So his "art" was putting it together in a new way"
[17:03] Howl Yifu: well, his records aren't either yes? they're largely remixing.
[17:04] Howl Yifu: so is life.
[17:04] Layla Afterthought: Yeah. Only on the records
[17:04] Layla Afterthought: he decided on the final mix.
[17:04] Layla Afterthought: on Erratum Errata, we do.
[17:04] Howl Yifu: - i think we've done a good job thinking about the cultural/sampling argument.
[17:05] Howl Yifu: any other thoughts on the format of the book? why the playboy bunnies? (a question kathernine raised)
[17:05] Layla Afterthought: haha, good question
[17:05] Slothrop Charlesworth: just another sampling from pop culture
[17:05] Lindsey Ireman: "we just read it for the stories?"
[17:05] DeSelby Zarco: or the need to put the imagine of the disc on every page
[17:05] Lindsey Ireman: hehe
[17:05] DeSelby Zarco: it was really ugly
[17:05] Howl Yifu: ha!
[17:05] Howl Yifu: well, culture of the image, certainly.
[17:06] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I thought it connected to the prostitution theme at the end
[17:06] Bhodi Silverman: Slothrop... but wy THAT sampling? Is anything ever "just sampling" and without significaiton?
[17:06] Howl Yifu: perhaps also an argument for "using up" o fthe image
[17:06] Layla Afterthought: oh, good point
[17:06] Howl Yifu: katherine: yes, how so? why the prostitute here?
[17:06] Freebyrd Sugarplum: well, there's the hole through the Napster kitty's head, too. Sorta looks like a bullet hole
[17:06] beth Wasp: the images also create a kind of noise--visual noise
[17:06] Kathereene Kahanamoku: yeah
[17:06] Howl Yifu: one way of thinking of the bunnies is of a kind of claim for "hip"
[17:07] DeSelby Zarco: is playboy hip?
[17:07] Kathereene Kahanamoku: hippity hop
[17:07] Howl Yifu: -- that's why i said "claim"
[17:07] Howl Yifu: but it was perceived as hip at one time (hippety hop is kind of funny tho)
[17:07] Layla Afterthought: It's one of those symbols that are utterly recognizable and more and more detatched from their original context.
[17:08] Howl Yifu: yes, this is beth's point too - a kind of reference but also emptying out
[17:08] Liz Finistair: It is interesting to think about the hole through the middle, though, too.
[17:08] Slothrop Charlesworth: I hated the red button (to hold the cd in). Kept falling out of the back of the book
[17:08] Howl Yifu: the question is whether this image (any image) is used up
[17:08] Howl Yifu: liz - say more?
[17:08] Liz Finistair: It's not "whole," but it is a cultural sample
[17:08] Lindsey Ireman: production wise putting those holes in every page sure wasnt cheap
[17:08] Howl Yifu: slothrop - yeah
[17:08] Lindsey Ireman: nore the gloss finish on the graphics pages
[17:08] Howl Yifu: mit press has a big budget
[17:09] Liz Finistair: there's something lacking in its completeness here, but Spooky seems to fill that lack by sampling it in with other graphics
[17:09] Amelia Mistwalker: me, too James
[17:09] Slothrop Charlesworth: maybe he wants the book to not look like a university press book. he succeeds in that
[17:09] Howl Yifu: so: whole in the middle as record / absence at center / yes, good question of filling it.
[17:10] Howl Yifu: katherline - what's your take on the figure of the prostitute here. anyone - what is spooky doing with this figure?
[17:10] DeSelby Zarco: i had a harder time with prostitute than the idiot
[17:10] Liz Finistair: And interestingly, it all culminates in the CD. So we're back at the beginning: maybe the CD is the point of it, and the book is just a way of getting to it.
[17:10] DeSelby Zarco: where he started
[17:10] Howl Yifu: (deselby: try saying that five times fast)
[17:10] beth Wasp: do we read it as a hole (with "wholeness") or as an aspect of the book that, by allowing it to cite CDs/records, signifies that it can be played--that it needs a device and user
[17:11] DeSelby Zarco: oof
[17:11] Howl Yifu: liz: the whole as occluded source, as site of citation
[17:11] Liz Finistair: Ooh, awesome point, Beth
[17:11] beth Wasp: it's a conceptual record of sorts
[17:11] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I thought it was related to how djs and prostitutes try to be/make people believe what they want
[17:11] Howl Yifu: But Deselby: yes, I wonder about the prostitute. I mean, it's a sort of trite trope, as if to say "we're sample whores," but isn't it an explotative trope as well?
[17:11] DeSelby Zarco: "what do you want from me"
[17:12] Howl Yifu: Katherine: yes, make others believe and allow others to use.
[17:12] MoBecca Podless: ultimate capitalism
[17:12] Slothrop Charlesworth: prostitutes are capitalism
[17:12] Howl Yifu: This goes back to the persona. The persona is a form of use - the persona says "use me,"
[17:12] DeSelby Zarco: yeah but with the idiot as the one who processes information and merely spits it back out, the prostitute isn't even really rehaping a whole lot
[17:12] MoBecca Podless: not use me--but i'm available for a price
[17:12] DeSelby Zarco: *reshaping
[17:13] Howl Yifu: We can say prostitutes are capitalism - and at the same time need to balance this with the specific differences between, say, the way a bank employee is used and the way a sex worker is used.
[17:13] Liz Finistair: depends on the bank
[17:13] Freebyrd Sugarplum: semantics
[17:13] Howl Yifu: oof
[17:14] Liz Finistair: not literally, mind you, but in a way, all of us are being used in the same sort of manner
[17:14] Howl Yifu: deselby: i like this question of the idiot vs prostititue distinction.
[17:14] Howl Yifu: both involve quesitons of citation/sampling as well.
[17:14] Howl Yifu: idiot by definition does not speak or at most merely repeats.
[17:15] Howl Yifu: the prostitute, by contrast, reworks / recites with desire.
[17:15] MoBecca Podless: levels of control
[17:15] Howl Yifu: creates a mask/personas/citation via commodified desire.
[17:15] Howl Yifu: liz: yes. even the proper name (anyone's) says "use me"
[17:16] Howl Yifu: but the proper name also says "cite me" and recite me
[17:16] Howl Yifu: there are only series --> or spins, that's my new word for it!
[17:16] Howl Yifu: hmm.
[17:16] DeSelby Zarco: not to knock on prostitution, but doesn't that sort of make this rhythm science seem sort of base and artless
[17:16] Amelia Mistwalker: true. I had a hard time when we first got on here not knowing who people were in order to attribute comments to those who said them
[17:17] Slothrop Charlesworth: he may want to demistify art in the same way a prostitute demistifies sex
[17:17] Howl Yifu: DeSelby: or rather, makes it seem a kind of bourgeios adaption of the "dangerous" (the prostititue)
[17:17] MoBecca Podless: transactions---of different things--services, ideas, persuasion
[17:17] Howl Yifu: some of it is Baudelaire, however, who developed the notion of the "flaneur"
[17:17] Howl Yifu: i.e. the cultural worker who recycles
[17:17] Howl Yifu: and who also invokved the prosittute in this context
[17:18] Howl Yifu: then taken up by Walter Benjamin, in the same way, to think about reproducibility
[17:18] Howl Yifu: (why might see a series here between control of reproducibility and the libidinal intensity [prostititue, desire in citation])
[17:19] Howl Yifu: Amelia, did you get to point us / instigate as you wanted to?
[17:19] Kathereene Kahanamoku: doesn't spooky say "so many people [to be], so little time
[17:19] Amelia Mistwalker: I haven't yet
[17:19] Howl Yifu: amelia, please do so.
[17:20] Amelia Mistwalker: ok...
[17:20] Howl Yifu: i.e. direct, tell, enlighten!
[17:20] Amelia Mistwalker: my blog is ameliamartinsblog.blogspot.com
[17:21] Amelia Mistwalker: and I'd like to start out by watching the second link on my blog
[17:21] Howl Yifu: ok. we should watch now?
[17:21] Amelia Mistwalker: (in the fourth paragraph)
[17:21] Amelia Mistwalker: yes
[17:21] Amelia Mistwalker: and for those who can't see it, I'll summarize
[17:22] Howl Yifu: plz
[17:22] MoBecca Podless: um...is amelias blog blank for nayone else?
[17:22] Layla Afterthought: click on march!
[17:22] Howl Yifu: http://ameliamartinsblog.blogspot.com/2009_03_01_archive.html
[17:22] Lindsey Ireman: it was blank, but if you click on march it works
[17:22] Bhodi Silverman: You have to click on March, MoBecca
[17:22] MoBecca Podless: thanks
[17:22] Amelia Mistwalker: yeah, click on March
[17:23] Freebyrd Sugarplum: ais it the Colbert video, Amelia?
[17:23] Layla Afterthought: Love the remix!
[17:23] Lindsey Ireman: my comp cant seem to do youtube and 2ndlife together sound wise
[17:23] Howl Yifu: summerize for me, on lo-bandwith in the alps
[17:23] Amelia Mistwalker: okay, so a summary for those who can't watch and have secondlife open at the same time: on The colbert Report, Lawrence Lessig and Colbert have an interview (about Lessig's book, Remix")
[17:24] Howl Yifu: ok
[17:25] Amelia Mistwalker: and in that interview, Colbert tells viewers that they do NOT have his permission to remix that interview to a sweet dance tune, and the link is someone's remix of the interview to a sweet dance tone.
[17:25] Howl Yifu: kool
[17:25] Amelia Mistwalker: basically, this part of my blog's about copyright
[17:25] Amelia Mistwalker: *tune
[17:26] Amelia Mistwalker: so, this sort of brings us back to the question of what's new/original?
[17:27] Amelia Mistwalker: as Dj Spooky says " you can always squeeze something out of the past and make it new", but is this really "new"?
[17:27] beth Wasp: and new isn't always original
[17:27] Amelia Mistwalker: right, or innovative
[17:27] Howl Yifu: so, one set of categories is "original" and innovative that are value categoires
[17:27] Howl Yifu: not necessarily tied to the temporal categories - make it new...
[17:28] Liz Finistair: Can we consider parody new and/or innovative? It seems that that Colbert Report was relying heavily on sampling widely understood and conventional remixing
[17:28] beth Wasp: but "original" and "innovative" are tied temporally to certain things---cultures, histories, technologies, movements, etc.
[17:28] Lindsey Ireman: but there are elements of newness...certainly a layer of irony or humor has been added which didnt exist before
[17:28] Freebyrd Sugarplum: Totally, Lindsey
[17:28] Minksy Maven: good point
[17:29] Freebyrd Sugarplum: is it the technique or the message
[17:29] Howl Yifu: so, the new always contains the possiblity of irony and humor - self-reflection built into newness
[17:29] Howl Yifu: liz: isn't this a problem of the performativity of parody? ie does it "do" anything and if so what?
[17:29] Amelia Mistwalker: the third link is something similar but what dj spooky did (a remix of Rolling Stones satisfaction--but I don't think it was changed that much--just skipped--and president Bush "saying" something that he doesn't say
[17:30] Lindsey Ireman: I suppose that same newness could be added turning a power ballad into a sad country song...or johnny cash singing nine inch nails
[17:30] Lindsey Ireman: text can remain the same but impact may change
[17:30] Howl Yifu: amelia - what's your take on these remixes?
[17:30] Bhodi Silverman: Good example, Lindsey. That was a huge "newness" put over tha tsong.
[17:30] Amelia Mistwalker: right Lindsey--and so parodies are allowed (think of weird al yankovich)
[17:31] Liz Finistair: In a way, it does seem like parody functions in a similar way to remixing, especially in the way that Spooky argues for. It's taking bits of historical "literature" and making it into a form of cultural critique or cultural newness
[17:31] Layla Afterthought: I agree, Liz
[17:31] Howl Yifu: of course, there are different performativities of parody.
[17:31] DeSelby Zarco: i'm not seeing a good argument against this stuff
[17:31] Howl Yifu: weird al is "safe" in a way? right?
[17:31] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I for one listended to white and nerdy a lot more than ridin dirrty
[17:31] Slothrop Charlesworth: how safe?
[17:31] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I'm not joking, but I totally knew we'd get to Weird Al.
[17:31] DeSelby Zarco: unless coolio is invovled, then look out weird al
[17:31] Howl Yifu: whereas other parodies are much more unsettling
[17:31] Liz Finistair: But Weird Al also has to get permission from the original artists, which brings up back to IP
[17:32] Slothrop Charlesworth: not political (safe?)
[17:32] Freebyrd Sugarplum: Does it matter if he's safe? Can't funny be new without being safe/political
[17:32] Slothrop Charlesworth: Yeah P.Diddy didn't want him to sample
[17:32] Amelia Mistwalker: my take on these remixes is that it all depends on the person (seems to be my answer a lot) and what is being remixed. like for the rolling Stone one, not much was changed--just stopped and started again (like a broken record)
[17:32] Howl Yifu: freebyrd, sure
[17:33] DeSelby Zarco: but what about Devo's version of satisfaction, sounds like a completely unrelated track
[17:33] DeSelby Zarco: it sounds like devo (except the words are different)
[17:33] DeSelby Zarco: is one better than the other (spooky's or devo's?)
[17:33] Amelia Mistwalker: so, to make something new, it should be ADDED TO (the ongoing conversation) and not just paused here and there...even though sometimes it could be something entirely new
[17:33] Amelia Mistwalker: basically, I have no answer
[17:33] Howl Yifu: amelia, this is a n important point
[17:34] Howl Yifu: the question of what is added is essentially an aesthetic question
[17:34] beth Wasp: remixes symptomize the inevitable merging of soundscapes; parodies symptomize differently I think...but I'm not sure what to say here.
[17:34] Howl Yifu: literature poses thes questoin: what is added
[17:34] Slothrop Charlesworth: interpretation
[17:34] Layla Afterthought: true
[17:34] Layla Afterthought: but is that always the case?
[17:34] beth Wasp: there's simultaneity in the mix more so than in the parody.
[17:35] Howl Yifu: i note the later quote in amelia's blog "creativity rests in how you recontextualize the previous expression of others
[17:35] DeSelby Zarco: which is why i feel that remixing is ultimately a good thing--if nothing is added, who will really care about the remix enough for it to be a problem?
[17:35] Howl Yifu: so, a question of how you quote/recontextualize as adding
[17:35] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I think this gets into humans' captivation with diffeent forms of themselves--the familiar in an unfamiliar form is always sublime to people
[17:36] Howl Yifu: again, think of limits: on the one hand, the mix or citation that is exactly like the original
[17:36] Layla Afterthought: The way he defines creativity completely makes obsolete the "traditional" way of understanding creativity.
[17:36] Minksy Maven: parody is recognized as fair use in some instances too
[17:36] Howl Yifu: (e.g. pierre menard [borges] or van sant's psycho)
[17:36] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I think that's why we like a good cover of a song, too. the familiar in unfamiliar form
[17:36] Layla Afterthought: Howl: doesn't he claim that's impossible? There are no exact copies?
[17:36] Howl Yifu: on the other hand, the one where the reference is so fleeting as to not be there - the question is to understand this economy
[17:36] Liz Finistair: What about mixing one's own work? Is that still as creative and new as mixing others' work?
[17:36] Layla Afterthought: So basically any copy is automatically "new"
[17:36] Liz Finistair: And how does that change the idea of thinking of oneself in new ways?
[17:36] Layla Afterthought: Good question, Liz...
[17:37] Slothrop Charlesworth: and if each copy is new, nothing is ever "finished":
[17:37] Howl Yifu: liz - yes, what if I repeat my own piece. is it new?
[17:37] Howl Yifu: Series
[17:37] DeSelby Zarco: bands do that all the time, usually with bad responses
[17:37] Bhodi Silverman: Isn't that ultimately a fidelity question? What is the difference between an iteration and the original?
[17:37] Kathereene Kahanamoku: everything will be a noew form--no same song for the same crowd
[17:37] Layla Afterthought: I think you can remix yourself.... you're still removed from the work in terms of time, at least.
[17:37] Howl Yifu: I want to know: Amelia or others, what do you make of Colbert's saying "no remixes"?
[17:37] Liz Finistair: Hmmm. The bad response makes me wonder what remixing is really saying about the self, then.
[17:38] Layla Afterthought: And I guess every time an artist performs live on stage, that's kind of a remix.
[17:38] Liz Finistair: You can only make a new statement about the form and function of the self if you didn't actually start with yourself?
[17:38] MoBecca Podless: is it a remix or simply, different?
[17:38] Lindsey Ireman: well Cilbert himself is a persona, so how literally do we take his "no remixing" claim?
[17:38] Lindsey Ireman: colbert sorry
[17:38] Layla Afterthought: it's different, but isn't it also a different interpretation?
[17:38] Amelia Mistwalker: well he was just kidding really--he wanted his viewers to make a remix of it and to play it in danceclubs (he was joking when he said that, I think)
[17:38] MB Vintner: "no remixes" is complete control of the self and how it's presented
[17:38] Howl Yifu: well, first off his statement is a form of authority. it creates a boundary.
[17:39] Howl Yifu: amelia's right too: he/we know he's kidding. his statement creates parody in advance, out of all that follows.
[17:39] Slothrop Charlesworth: Colbert is a remix of bill O'reilly
[17:39] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I think Colbert would looove the idea of someone crossing that boundary
[17:39] Howl Yifu: sweet.
[17:39] Bhodi Silverman: /laughs at Slothrop and agrees.
[17:39] Layla Afterthought: so the original artist had a LOT of agency, in this case.
[17:39] Lindsey Ireman: well it also shows he made a response video
[17:39] Lindsey Ireman: to the remix video
[17:40] Howl Yifu: layla: but only as a persona, as "colbert" who is very specifically giving us himself to be used...
[17:40] Layla Afterthought: Right.
[17:40] DeSelby Zarco: the poor guy hasn't broken character in years
[17:40] Layla Afterthought: hehe
[17:41] Freebyrd Sugarplum: Colbert the tv persona is to Spooky the subliminal kid (there's an analogy for the SATs
[17:41] Liz Finistair: haha
[17:41] Lindsey Ireman: haha
[17:41] Slothrop Charlesworth: as mashed potatoes are to french fries
[17:41] Howl Yifu: freebyrd: ok, and then you need the third part, let's say Jospeh Stalin.
[17:41] Amelia Mistwalker: ahhh it all makes sense, now Jason
[17:41] Howl Yifu: ok, it's 145am here.
[17:41] Layla Afterthought: to a certain extent, don't all musicians set themselves up to be sampled, simply by making music, commercially?
[17:41] Freebyrd Sugarplum: that's a toughy
[17:42] Slothrop Charlesworth: yes I think so. Putting themselves out there
[17:42] Howl Yifu: layla, surely yes. to be public is to put yourself into a sampling position.
[17:42] Layla Afterthought: so in a way, they're all agents in their being sampled.
[17:42] DeSelby Zarco: but isn't it (often) a compliment to be sampled?
[17:42] Liz Finistair: But to copyright it is to say, "Don't remix."
[17:42] Slothrop Charlesworth: or is to copyright to say, pay me to remix
[17:43] Layla Afterthought: "Don't remix without permission"
[17:43] Howl Yifu: deselby: well, again, like the different modes of parody, we could talk about modes of sampling
[17:43] Layla Afterthought: yeah
[17:43] Layla Afterthought: it would be fun if a major musician chose to release an album and not copyright it. Wait.... has this happened?
[17:43] DeSelby Zarco: yeah
[17:43] Amelia Mistwalker: yes, which doesn't seem fair since you don't have to pay to quote someone else's words
[17:43] DeSelby Zarco: NIN
[17:43] Layla Afterthought: haha, knew it. Duh.
[17:43] Freebyrd Sugarplum: radiohead sort of did
[17:44] DeSelby Zarco: sent out his tracks all split up to be remixed
[17:44] Layla Afterthought: I was thinking Radiohead, didn't know if they copyrighted.
[17:44] Liz Finistair: well, I don't know, didn't Paris Hilton copyright "That's hot"?
[17:44] Layla Afterthought: hahahahaha!
[17:44] Minksy Maven: i agree. remixing is ok in terms of copyright as long as someone's getting paid. but don't you have to pay if you use a certain percentage of people's words?
[17:44] Amelia Mistwalker: haha I think she tried and failed
[17:44] Howl Yifu: someone copyrighted the word "truth."
[17:44] Layla Afterthought: crazy
[17:44] Minksy Maven: she didn't copyright it - nor did Donald Trump copyright "You're fired."
[17:44] Howl Yifu: OK. I'm losing steam here - so early in the morning.
[17:44] Liz Finistair: we should copyright the word remix.
[17:44] DeSelby Zarco: I copyrighted all words beginning with the letter N
[17:45] Slothrop Charlesworth: ha
[17:45] Freebyrd Sugarplum: michael buffer: "Let's get ready to Rumbbbbbllllleeee!" (copyrighted)
[17:45] Slothrop Charlesworth: I think howl is trying to give us a hint
[17:45] Lindsey Ireman: someone also compyrighted the happy birthday songwhich is why restaurants sing bad versions now
[17:45] Amelia Mistwalker: ya think?
[17:45] Howl Yifu: Do you have thoughts or questions towards the final paper/project?
[17:45] Liz Finistair: Yeah, slowly ushering us towards our coats and the door.
[17:45] Layla Afterthought: oh really? I didn't know that, Lindsey...
[17:45] Howl Yifu: Note: the examples on the syllabus all are about sampling (Strange Fruit and My Way).
[17:45] Howl Yifu: Could be good paper topics.
[17:45] Lindsey Ireman: finap paper...is there a proposal of anykind due soon?
[17:46] Layla Afterthought: Howl: I sent you an email about the soundscapes
[17:46] Rachel Geraln: how many outside sources?
[17:46] Howl Yifu: yes, layla got that.
[17:46] Howl Yifu: sources: none necessary.
[17:46] DeSelby Zarco: quick syllabus question, martina and i are instigating next week, Rhythm Science is on it again, do you want us to pay a lot or a little attention to that?
[17:46] Liz Finistair: Are you still in the process of commenting on the blogs, Sandy? I posted an idea for a paper topic on there a few weeks ago, if you are.
[17:46] DeSelby Zarco: or focus on the new stuff?
[17:46] Howl Yifu: DeSelby: next week is spring break, right?
[17:46] Freebyrd Sugarplum: yep
[17:47] DeSelby Zarco: oh twoweeks then
[17:47] Howl Yifu: no, two weeks is someone else? since the syllabus got mixed. hold on.
[17:47] Kathereene Kahanamoku: Acoustic Mirror is coming to a verandah near you!
[17:48] Howl Yifu: ach, my connection is off. Look at the blog.
[17:48] Howl Yifu: yes, katherine and mary? in two weeks.
[17:48] DeSelby Zarco: really?
[17:48] Howl Yifu: deselby and martine in three. focus on the other dj spooky book.
[17:48] Howl Yifu: re the final papers: no outside sources required.
[17:48] Howl Yifu: can be based totally on material from the syllabus.
[17:48] Rachel Geraln: ok
[17:48] Howl Yifu: but, you can bring in outside sources if you want.
[17:49] Rachel Geraln: ok good
[17:49] Howl Yifu: say you're working on a project or in an area and want to develop a topic there - do it, no problem
[17:49] Freebyrd Sugarplum: thanks for the leeway
[17:49] Minksy Maven: I'm not paired with Katherine...it must be someone else in 2 weeks
[17:49] Slothrop Charlesworth: will we discuss google docs at some point closer to the paper due date?
[17:49] Kathereene Kahanamoku: katherine and rachel next time
[17:49] Rachel Geraln: No it's you
[17:49] Rachel Geraln: we're in 3 weeks
[17:49] Howl Yifu: so, the syllabus says that by 4/20 you should post a short abstract (200 words) to your blog of the paper
[17:50] Kathereene Kahanamoku: oh uuups
[17:50] Howl Yifu: james: yes, I can discuss google docs next time.
[17:50] DeSelby Zarco: yeah i think it's martina and i in two
[17:50] Slothrop Charlesworth: great thanks
[17:50] Lindsey Ireman: ooh ok. great. thanks. didn't see that on the syllabus
[17:50] Howl Yifu: I will look at and clarify and email about the instigations in 2 and 3 weeks.
[17:50] DeSelby Zarco: okay
[17:50] Rachel Geraln: thanks!
[17:50] Howl Yifu: also, I will post the transcript of this class on the blog.
[17:50] Bhodi Silverman suddenly wishes she'd said more smart things, since there will be a transcript.
[17:51] Howl Yifu: and liz, yes I am still in the process of commenting. I'll get to it soon.
[17:51] Liz Finistair: Awesome, thanks.
[17:51] Howl Yifu: OK. I'm fading. Any questions? I think this worked well.
[17:51] MB Vintner: nope. thanks, this was fun.
[17:51] Slothrop Charlesworth: I'm good
[17:51] DeSelby Zarco: thanks!
[17:51] Freebyrd Sugarplum: yeah
[17:52] Lindsey Ireman: Im good. Thanks!!
[17:52] DeSelby Zarco: bye everyone
[17:52] Kathereene Kahanamoku: everyone looks cute
[17:52] Howl Yifu: ok. I'm going to save the chat and exit. see you in two weeks. enjoy spring break!