i've got bette davis eyes:: sl chat from 3/23

[16:01] Howl Yifu: OK, well, 7pm.
[16:01] Howl Yifu: Everyone comfy?
[16:01] DeSelby Zarco: slothrop, your avatar just had some wild twitches going on
[16:01] Layla Afterthought: Hi!
[16:01] Slothrop Charlesworth: detoxing
[16:01] Howl Yifu: Nice thing about this is that can't tell if we're in our pajamas or whetever.
[16:01] Howl Yifu: botoxing?
[16:01] DeSelby Zarco: i'm actually in a full suit of armor.
[16:02] Freebyrd Sugarplum is Online
[16:02] Howl Yifu: Today we'll discuss the acoustic mirror [ not quite yet ]
[16:02] Howl Yifu: First we'll do the soundscapes - I think Mary and Amelia?
[16:02] Minksy Maven: yep - Layla's with us too
[16:02] Howl Yifu: ah, right.
[16:03] Layla Afterthought: Did you get the email
[16:03] Bhodi Silverman is having trouble running both SL and her browser on her laptop, and may disappear briefly when she loads soundscapes. Sorry, bad planning on my part.
[16:03] Howl Yifu: keep in mind: next week we return to spooky dj. read into the second book (Sound Unbound)
[16:03] Howl Yifu: -- Layla: wait, not sure? email re what?
[16:03] DeSelby Zarco: ~ how far?
[16:03] Layla Afterthought: My question mark key is stuck, so I'm not just being lazy with my punctuation, heh.
[16:04] Layla Afterthought: Oh, Amelia's email about our soundscape.
[16:04] Howl Yifu: So, how can we tell if you're being ironic?
[16:04] Howl Yifu: Hmm. not sure i go that. hold on a minute.
[16:05] Slothrop Charlesworth: Hey!
[16:05] Minksy Maven: ok. we sent you our file because we had trouble uploading it
[16:05] Howl Yifu: well, looking for it.
[16:05] Howl Yifu: well, while I search in the background...
[16:05] Layla Afterthought: So, is there a way to post mp3s to the blogs
[16:06] Howl Yifu: you can link to an mp3 to a blog if the mp3 is elsewhere on the web, but you cant upload an mp3 to blogspot
[16:06] Layla Afterthought: So where else online can we put it
[16:07] Layla Afterthought: (question mark, hehe)
[16:07] DeSelby Zarco: Maybe we can e-mail them before class if the file's not huge?
[16:07] Howl Yifu: no don't have that email?
[16:07] Bhodi Silverman: If we take them to the CLC, is there an FTP site?
[16:07] Howl Yifu: OK. If you've an mp3, do the following.
[16:07] Layla Afterthought: We sent it to your mix account.
[16:08] Howl Yifu: well,, my mix account should bounce to my other accounts, but I'll look there too.
[16:08] MB Vintner: it took me awhile to find you all
[16:09] Howl Yifu: that means the file isn't ready and the moment?
[16:09] Layla Afterthought: The file is ready, it just needs to be accessed by everyone somehow.
[16:10] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I was thinking of trying to play the file into the mic here in second life
[16:10] Howl Yifu: we can take a break a bit latter and I can see if I can retrieve your file.
[16:10] Layla Afterthought: Mary is trying to send it again.
[16:10] Howl Yifu: yeah sure, play it in the mic.
[16:10] Layla Afterthought: Any preferred email address
[16:10] Howl Yifu: send it to charles.baldwin@mail.wvu.edu
[16:10] Kathereene Kahanamoku: pl
[16:10] Kathereene Kahanamoku: i mean ok
[16:10] Howl Yifu: ok. and when we break i will quickly send all of you some instructions as to where oyu could upload mp3s if needed.
[16:10] Lindsey Ireman is Online
[16:10] Layla Afterthought: Mary is sending it now.
[16:11] Howl Yifu: Now, while mary sends.
[16:11] Howl Yifu: Another future issue is google docs as a way of uploading your final papers.
[16:11] Howl Yifu: Pretty simple.
[16:11] Howl Yifu: Go to google.com/docs or docs.google.com (ends up the same place)
[16:12] Howl Yifu: Login - you have a google account already, since you have a blogger account.
[16:12] Howl Yifu: There's an upload tab.
[16:12] DeSelby Zarco: there's megaupload that's pretty easy for mp3s if emailing causes problems on bigger files
[16:12] Howl Yifu: Tony's right: there's a bunch of places to put them. I'll send the CLC instructions if the email doens't reach me.
[16:13] Howl Yifu: OK: Upload tab on google docs. You can uplaod pretty much everything *except* the new Microsoft formats (.docx etc) so save those as .doc
[16:13] Howl Yifu: Then, once uploaded, choose the share tab.
[16:14] Howl Yifu: then you've got a couple of options, but the easiest is "publish as a webpage" and then "publish on a blog" will put it right on your blog
[16:14] Howl Yifu: ok.. I'll send these instructions around later.
[16:15] Howl Yifu: i've received mary's file. I'll upload it while we're talking.
[16:15] Rachel Geraln: ok
[16:15] Bhodi Silverman: Sandy, since I'm doing a sort of mutli-media thing for mine, which I had figured I'd do in PowerPoint, will I be able to just FTP it to you, or do I need to repurpose it for the web and find a host?
[16:15] Layla Afterthought: Yay!
[16:16] Howl Yifu: Well, you can upload powerpoint to googledocs, even regular/non-html ppt
[16:16] Howl Yifu: try, if it doesn't work, email and we'll figure it out
[16:17] Bhodi Silverman: Okay, thanks. I didn't think Googledocs would take embedded sound files, and I'm leaning on those a lotl
[16:17] Howl Yifu: ok. give me two minues to start uploading that file.
[16:17] Kathereene Kahanamoku: Wish I could figure out how to sit down
[16:17] Howl Yifu: bhodi: ok. then you can ftp it to the clc site. it will be the same instructions i send in a bit for mp3s.
[16:17] Lindsey Ireman is Offline
[16:17] Alan Dojoji is Online
[16:18] Howl Yifu: give me two minutes here
[16:19] Lindsey Ireman is Online
[16:20] Howl Yifu: it's uploading.
[16:20] Howl Yifu: Alright. Once that's there we'll listen and then talk about it.
[16:20] Howl Yifu: next week it's the rest of the sounds...
[16:21] DeSelby Zarco: when you say to get going on Sound Unbound, how deep into that do you want us to be (Martina and I are instigating, how far should we cover?)
[16:21] Howl Yifu: well, let's say next week up through the essay by Pauline Oliveiros.
[16:22] MRF Hammerthall: sounds good
[16:23] Howl Yifu: well, the upload is slow because i'm running second life as well here on this stupid portable internet thing i've bought here.
[16:23] Howl Yifu: too expensive to get a line into the apartment here - dsl or whatever - so it's all wifi - a bit wavery at times.
[16:24] Amelia Mistwalker: Please!
[16:24] Howl Yifu: OK. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sbaldwin/soundproject.mp3
[16:24] Amelia Mistwalker: Boo!
[16:25] Howl Yifu: try that. any instruction layla amelia mary?
[16:25] Minksy Maven: turn it up real loud!!!!
[16:25] Howl Yifu: ok. let's listen -
[16:26] Freebyrd Sugarplum: can you send the link again?
[16:26] Howl Yifu: http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sbaldwin/soundproject.mp3
[16:26] DeSelby Zarco: wow this got weird all of a sudden
[16:28] Minksy Maven: haha no. we didn't involve brad or his office in this one
[16:28] Howl Yifu: brad who?
[16:29] DeSelby Zarco: this is weird, i'm seeing responses occasionally when i don't the question
[16:29] Bhodi Silverman: Me, too.
[16:29] MRF Hammerthall: me too
[16:29] Minksy Maven: a lecturer who has a microwave in his office. but there was no microwave involved
[16:29] Howl Yifu: tony: you might be getting im'd?
[16:29] Lindsey Ireman: I am also not seeing all questions asked
[16:29] Minksy Maven: rachel must've been asking me about what we did to record
[16:29] DeSelby Zarco: meaning what?
[16:30] Minksy Maven: so what did you think?
[16:30] Rachel Geraln: sorry my bad
[16:30] Howl Yifu: ok. could be people are out of range. let's close ranks.
[16:30] Bhodi Silverman really likes this soundscape!
[16:30] Layla Afterthought: Thanks!
[16:30] Howl Yifu: no, range isn't the issue.
[16:30] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I enjoyed it
[16:30] Rachel Geraln: i liked the mixing in it!
[16:30] Howl Yifu: oh crap.
[16:31] Kathereene Kahanamoku: It was fun--was there a zipper involved?
[16:31] Minksy Maven: that was me!
[16:31] Slothrop Charlesworth: I give it an A
[16:31] Minksy Maven: yep
[16:31] Layla Afterthought: Zipper is correct!
[16:31] Sabrina Loudwater: I like the remixing of the voices -- nice touch.
[16:31] Howl Yifu: you are the zipper?
[16:31] DeSelby Zarco: i really liked when the conversation just exploded
[16:31] MoBecca Podless: footsteps good--made me anxious
[16:31] Slothrop Charlesworth: yeah it got violent somewhere there in the middle
[16:31] Rachel Geraln: yea!
[16:31] Bhodi Silverman: I love how sounds went from recognizable to not and back again.
[16:31] Rachel Geraln: it sounded like stomp for a minute
[16:31] Minksy Maven: i made a lot of the noises - the zipper, the oh crap, the banging
[16:32] Minksy Maven: no stomp though!
[16:32] Layla Afterthought: They're all office sounds.
[16:32] Layla Afterthought: It's pretty much all Mary.
[16:32] Rachel Geraln: Well, I meant that show where people just bang stuff together
[16:32] Howl Yifu: there are ways it relates to the acoustic mirror as well: female voices, a kind of focusing of presence, ...
[16:32] Layla Afterthought: It was not very noisy in real life... except some parts.
[16:32] Amelia Mistwalker: I did the "ah" after the coffee!
[16:32] Rachel Geraln: yes!!!
[16:32] Layla Afterthought: I did most of the annoying Talk Explosion, heh.
[16:33] Minksy Maven: true. it would've been much quieter and less exciting without the use of Layla's iPhone application
[16:33] Layla Afterthought: I've listened to it way too often now.
[16:33] Howl Yifu: there was a bbizarro donald duck echo as well, on the voices
[16:33] Howl Yifu: very good! excellent at fun.
[16:33] Layla Afterthought: We just recorded it filtered through this program that samples everything immediately back and creates different effects.
[16:33] Freebyrd Sugarplum: is the background fuzz just ambient noise from the office?
[16:34] Layla Afterthought: I think it worked out really well.
[16:34] Layla Afterthought: Pretty much, yeah.
[16:34] Howl Yifu: can you repeat a few things about it for me: 1) what is the relation to offices? 2) "talk explosion" is that something you've just coined?
[16:34] Amelia Mistwalker: Yes, Freebyrd
[16:34] Layla Afterthought: Haha, yeah.
[16:34] Kathereene Kahanamoku: nice
[16:34] Amelia Mistwalker: 1. It was done in an office and they are office noises
[16:34] Howl Yifu: aha!
[16:35] Howl Yifu: banal and familiar, yet spacy and eerie inthis case...
[16:35] Amelia Mistwalker: (coffee pouring, typing, radio, chatting, keys)
[16:35] Layla Afterthought: In my blog post I talk about how office sounds are rea;ly recognizable and common, in their innanimate way. We made them sound almost more "alive"
[16:35] Howl Yifu: nice. coffee pouring has a really odd sound.
[16:35] Layla Afterthought: The have more of a "personality" almost...
[16:36] Howl Yifu: i can imagine an analysis of office noises via attali's article from a few weeks ago:
[16:36] Layla Afterthought: Whereas the people talking sounded LESS intelligible and "normal"
[16:36] Howl Yifu: office sounds aren't really sounds anymore but commodities, measured and tied to production (the stapler sound, the keyboard keys, even the coffee)
[16:37] Howl Yifu: so, making a soundscape - or making the altered voices - discovers the noise and utopic outside (inside?) of the office
[16:37] Layla Afterthought: True. Is the typing on our recording immediately recognizable?
[16:37] Amelia Mistwalker: don't forget the ping pong ball of boredom
[16:37] Howl Yifu: would be worth playiing it against the beginning of Money by Pink Floyd with the cash register
[16:37] Minksy Maven: it wasn't boredom - i just like ping pong
[16:37] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I like how it gets progressively more chaotic as it goes along
[16:38] Howl Yifu: yes, a lot happening in two short minutes.
[16:38] Layla Afterthought: Listening to it again after recording, it really reminded me of being in an empty office and then people suddenly sticking their heads in and making random small talk.
[16:38] Layla Afterthought: We used really stereotypical phrases.
[16:39] DeSelby Zarco: it reminded me how much i hate office sound--but that could just be about my office
[16:39] Slothrop Charlesworth: Is there an intended function for the program you used on the iphone?
[16:39] Minksy Maven: yeah. and we felt all of the banging and clashing kind of resembled my frustration as the main sound-maker in the office trying to get work done but having trouble
[16:39] Howl Yifu: another thing about offices is we don't always think of them as spaces with potentials for noise or other activites; they're intended for a single purpose (producing paper or whatever)
[16:39] Sabrina Loudwater: I kind of felt like I was in the office at the end of the hall and these were the noises happening around me, but not including me.
[16:39] DeSelby Zarco: not that i hated the soundscape!
[16:39] Layla Afterthought: You're supposed to walk around and "experience the world around you in a new way"
[16:39] Howl Yifu: yes, what is the program called?
[16:39] Layla Afterthought: You can google RJDJ
[16:39] Layla Afterthought: That's the program.
[16:40] Howl Yifu: iPhone ist sehr kuhl
[16:40] MoBecca Podless: ja voll
[16:40] Layla Afterthought: Haha, das stimmt!
[16:40] Howl Yifu: i think, as the first of these, this was great.
[16:40] MB Vintner: yes, the bar has been set high
[16:40] Howl Yifu: they can have more or less semantic content / message/ etc.
[16:41] Howl Yifu: they can be more or less technological (?) whatever that might mean
[16:41] beth Wasp: it reminds of the fact that we notice office sound during moments of tension----either when we have too much or too little work to do; I like how the soundscape creates new work out of the stifled office work
[16:41] Minksy Maven: thanks. that's part of what we were going for
[16:41] beth Wasp: very cool soundscape
[16:41] Freebyrd Sugarplum: not that the workplace is ever stifling....
[16:41] Layla Afterthought: Thanks!
[16:42] Howl Yifu: yes beth, suggests the absent body in the office. alsmost like a dickinson poem: I hear a fly
[16:42] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I agree. Awesome
[16:42] Minksy Maven: a microwave in there would've been interesting too
[16:42] Howl Yifu: yes. put popcorn in the micrwave, set it for 15 minutes, and start recording
[16:42] Rachel Geraln: That's what I thought the dinging was...for a second Ithought it was a break room
[16:42] beth Wasp: ah yes...
[16:42] Lindsey Ireman: ahh burnt popcorn...thats the smell of a real office
[16:42] Minksy Maven: and we do get that on the 3rd floor quite often
[16:43] Amelia Mistwalker: yeah--no smells. we're not THAT tech savvy
[16:43] Howl Yifu: hmmm, what else cna you do with a microwaver? different sounds i suppose.
[16:43] Layla Afterthought: Next project! Smellscape!
[16:43] Kathereene Kahanamoku: SOme of us are humgry
[16:43] Slothrop Charlesworth: 3rd floor represent
[16:43] Howl Yifu: hee hee. ok, other comments?
[16:43] Slothrop Charlesworth: I'm trying to figure out why it gets more hectic as it goes alone
[16:44] Slothrop Charlesworth: along
[16:44] beth Wasp: i liked how the voices could have been anyone's---I felt implicated in them
[16:44] Minksy Maven: the program seems to add more sounds as more get recorded, and it also picks up the pace
[16:44] Howl Yifu: yes, the voices sneak up and suddenly are a crowd.
[16:44] Bhodi Silverman: I really liked how some voices were foregrounded and others were backgrounded... it created a sense of physical space for me.
[16:44] Slothrop Charlesworth: oh ok that makes sense
[16:44] Layla Afterthought: The louder the noise, the more it does with them.
[16:44] beth Wasp: for a moment, I thought my voice had been recorded---strange
[16:45] Layla Afterthought: I also liked that it got loud and angry after "oh crap".... I like to call it the Angry Thunder, hehe.
[16:45] Howl Yifu: james: do you like or dislike this aspect?
[16:45] Amelia Mistwalker: more hectic? one of my interpretations is that Mary's getting more and more bored.
[16:45] Howl Yifu: i.e. the increasing chaos?
[16:45] Howl Yifu: hecticocity
[16:45] Slothrop Charlesworth: I like it because it seems constantly changing all the way through
[16:45] Layla Afterthought: And after the voices it gets quiet again.
[16:45] beth Wasp: also, the chaos ensues during the conversation---which could involve the network of thoughts, actions, distractions held together in the conversation
[16:45] Howl Yifu: - with amelia, i did find it tied to ennui
[16:45] Layla Afterthought: I thought it felt pretty relieving when the voices stopped.
[16:45] Slothrop Charlesworth: moving towards something
[16:46] Layla Afterthought: If it didn't have the steps, you could almost loop it!
[16:46] Layla Afterthought: Etermal office!
[16:46] Bhodi Silverman: Layla... I did, too. After a while, they were pretty overwhelming, but in a powerful way.
[16:46] Layla Afterthought: Eternal.
[16:47] Howl Yifu: OK, two minute break while I fish out the instructions for mp3 posting. Then we move to Silverman. OK?
[16:47] Layla Afterthought: If I was in Austria, I'd be using those two minutes to grab a beer
[16:47] Lindsey Ireman: here here
[16:48] Kathereene Kahanamoku: Over here!
[16:48] Rachel Geraln: ahhhh yes that sounds nice
[16:48] Amelia Mistwalker: but you ARE in Austria
[16:48] Layla Afterthought: .... so I can have virtual beer
[16:48] Rachel Geraln: haha
[16:48] Bhodi Silverman: Oh, wait, I'm going to pretend like I'm in Paris and go grab some wine. What a great idea!
[16:48] Lindsey Ireman: we are in the lab in colson
[16:48] DeSelby Zarco: they don't have beer in your part of town?
[16:48] Layla Afterthought: Shoulda brought a twelvepack, I knew it.
[16:48] Slothrop Charlesworth: ahh colson. hit the coke machine
[16:49] Layla Afterthought: Haha, I might!
[16:49] Minksy Maven: we will!!!! you should be here Charles
[16:49] Minksy Maven: hahaha sounds good
[16:49] Howl Yifu: had much red wine already
[16:50] Howl Yifu: ok, if you want to post an mp3 file, go to the clc site and login as before (engl693, pword *****)
[16:50] Howl Yifu: Go to “My Folder” on upper right
[16:50] Howl Yifu: You’ll see a pull down menu and next to it a blue highlighted area saying Add New Item.
[16:50] Howl Yifu: Pull down and select File.
[16:51] Howl Yifu: You'll see a box to put a Title for the file. Give it a short, single string (soundscape rather than "My Groovy Long Title")
[16:51] Howl Yifu: and a box for "File" that let's you select from your desktop.
[16:51] Alan Dojoji is Offline
[16:52] Howl Yifu: Upload the file and note the link when it's done uploading.
[16:52] Howl Yifu: I'll send these around via email later as well.
[16:52] Howl Yifu: ok., now it's katherine and rachel, correct?
[16:52] Rachel Geraln: yep
[16:52] Kathereene Kahanamoku: mmhm
[16:53] Rachel Geraln: Ok so we are going to talk about the Accoustic Mirror
[16:53] Howl Yifu: We're talking Kaja silverman's Acoustic Mirror. We can take this in numerous directions., but let's see what Katherine and Rachel have to say.
[16:53] Rachel Geraln: http://rachelthinkingaloudquestionmark.blogspot.com/
[16:53] Kathereene Kahanamoku: for reference: www.noiseswesay.blogspot.com
[16:53] Rachel Geraln: this is my blog there are some videos on these for you guys to look at in a bit
[16:53] Kathereene Kahanamoku: There are some pictures of some of the mirrors
[16:54] Howl Yifu: should we look at both, or one at a time?
[16:54] Rachel Geraln: we will direct you there
[16:54] Howl Yifu: ok
[16:54] Rachel Geraln: but for starters we just want to talk briefly about what an accoustic mirror is
[16:55] Rachel Geraln: besides the obvious female shape (bodily representation)
[16:55] Kathereene Kahanamoku: So these acoustic mirrors were basically giant concrete ears that were kindof predecessors of radar during WWII
[16:56] Kathereene Kahanamoku: These acoustic mirror experts would listen to the sound impulses captured in the concave structures and they could tell even what kind of planes were coming from 15+ miles away
[16:57] Kathereene Kahanamoku: that gave a few more minutes notice than visual sightings
[16:57] DeSelby Zarco: unless they came from the other direction
[16:57] Kathereene Kahanamoku: Right--they started mounting some of these on wheels eventually
[16:58] Howl Yifu: This history is interesting. How much does this factor into silverman’s account? Conversely, what does it add?
[16:58] Kathereene Kahanamoku: so Silverman was saying that these concave structures are really symbolic of the female voice as a reflection of male expression
[16:58] Rachel Geraln: How did you all feel this book related to today. We are sitting in a world 20+ years after the writing fo the book. So how are representations the same/familiar/etc?
[16:59] Rachel Geraln: sorry, we just wanted to give a brief background...because we want to come back to it later if we have time
[16:59] Slothrop Charlesworth: same results different technology...even if 20 years later
[16:59] Howl Yifu: no, It's important. one thing it suggest, for example, is a wider range of application - beyond film -
[17:00] Liz Finistair: It seems like, if we take into account the Freudian reading Silverman was doing as well, that the "original" acoustic mirrors were also a way of using an apparatus to attempt to cover over a sense of lack
[17:00] Rachel Geraln: yes!
[17:00] Rachel Geraln: and the sense of lack that writers and directors were imagining in audiences
[17:00] Liz Finistair: filling in for what we can't see (almost a bit like the subconscious we can't see)
[17:00] Kathereene Kahanamoku: and perpetuating through film
[17:01] Howl Yifu: so, this would push cinematic space outward onto "real" space. or that we understand the real space through cinematic spoace and its missing/lack
[17:01] Rachel Geraln: or make it a mirror of "Real" space
[17:01] Liz Finistair: As far as whether it's still relevant 20+ years later, I think it definitely is, although I'm not sure it's as gendered as Silverman says it is.
[17:01] Rachel Geraln: Ok ... well to deviate a bit towards pop culture
[17:02] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I agree, Liz. And I think that the filmmakers are at least more aware of these issues/themes
[17:02] Howl Yifu: also the war dimension: mobilization of this technology as a relation to the enemy - playing out the problem of male subjectivity silverman describes.
[17:02] Howl Yifu: ok - yes, let's talk about the contemporary.
[17:02] Freebyrd Sugarplum: audiences, too
[17:02] Kathereene Kahanamoku: The separation between the viewer and the viewed I thought was an interesting relationship that seems to hinge upon that sense of lack
[17:02] Rachel Geraln: I Well this idea of male subjectivity
[17:02] Rachel Geraln: for instance the most unwanted song ever
[17:02] Rachel Geraln: versus the most wanted song
[17:02] Howl Yifu: Freebyrd, or others, can we think of examples of contemporary films that do something different with female voice?
[17:03] Rachel Geraln: in the "more wanted" version the woman's voice is lower and sultry
[17:03] Freebyrd Sugarplum: for sure.
[17:03] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I've actually written some on Tarantino
[17:03] Rachel Geraln: and if you think about famous singers and voices that we here today...Justin Timberlake, Josh Grobin, etc
[17:03] DeSelby Zarco: what about the little mermaid?
[17:03] Rachel Geraln: and Norah Roberts and others
[17:03] Howl Yifu: or are we still within the hollywood system described by film theory 20 years ago.
[17:03] DeSelby Zarco: she loses her voice
[17:03] Freebyrd Sugarplum: And yes, I think he's a bit exploitationist, but I think there's an awareness there
[17:03] Rachel Geraln: there voices kind of meet in te middle in this sort of androngeous zone
[17:03] Howl Yifu: So, Little Mermaid is an example of the acoustic mirror.
[17:04] Kathereene Kahanamoku: And to tie that back to the mirror, the female was becoming a receptacle for male aggression and violence
[17:04] Howl Yifu: Tartantino... Kill Bill she also gets her voice taken away?
[17:04] Freebyrd Sugarplum: even within his own films, Uma Thurman has become a more progressive hero in her separate film appearances
[17:04] Rachel Geraln: good point!
[17:04] Freebyrd Sugarplum: But that film is about getting her voice back, maybe
[17:05] Howl Yifu: I think KB I and II would be good to analyze from this angle.
[17:05] Rachel Geraln: but on male terms
[17:05] Liz Finistair: But with The Little Mermaid, she loses her voice to another woman (ish thing)
[17:05] Amelia Mistwalker: yeah, Tarantino--hadn't thought of that connection Jason
[17:05] Howl Yifu: The narrative enfolding of Kill Bill would be tied to voice.
[17:05] Freebyrd Sugarplum: At any rate, it's a much different hero than Sarah Connor in Rachel's blog description
[17:05] Rachel Geraln: If you think about Kill Bill nothing that Kiddo does is very maternal in natures
[17:05] Rachel Geraln: granted she is revenging for her daughter
[17:05] MoBecca Podless: but even so, most films with "strong" female characters are strong because they take on what society perceives as masculine traits. the women in kill bill fight, kung fu, and kill throughout the movie
[17:05] DeSelby Zarco: the lioness and her cub
[17:05] Rachel Geraln: I think they are really quite the same
[17:06] Kathereene Kahanamoku: but she has had the maternal role taken away from her
[17:06] Lindsey Ireman: There is an interesting book called from Shane to Kill Bill that examines Kill Bill as a western and talks about voice
[17:06] Lindsey Ireman: if anyone is interested
[17:06] Rachel Geraln: Kiddo and Sarah Connor...their only "woman" link is their maternal nature
[17:06] Freebyrd Sugarplum: but I dont' think they necessarily seem masculine
[17:06] Kathereene Kahanamoku: and she is therefore operating in an androgenous scenario
[17:06] Lindsey Ireman: it also talks about Kiddo's maternal instincts or lack thereof
[17:06] MoBecca Podless: angelina jolie wears leather and is a spy and has a gun in every other movie
[17:06] Liz Finistair: That's an interesting point, Rebecca. Think also of any of Joss Whedon's teenage girl/butt-kicking heroines
[17:07] Rachel Geraln: yes....but think how we are discussing these films
[17:07] Howl Yifu: Keep in mind, however, that there were women action heroes in the past.
[17:07] Rachel Geraln: that all have male directors, writers, producers
[17:07] Liz Finistair: There's a weird tension between being masculine and powerful and being sexy
[17:07] Liz Finistair: They seem to have to go together.
[17:07] Freebyrd Sugarplum: YeYes, but look at Ripley in Aliens. Much more masculine.
[17:07] DeSelby Zarco: until the end
[17:07] Liz Finistair: So in a way, the female voice still has to match the picture of the woman we're seeing
[17:07] Howl Yifu: ok, so sexiness and masculinity. Ripley: also a deep voice.
[17:07] DeSelby Zarco: wehn they put her in a tank top for the final battle
[17:07] Liz Finistair: Yeah, much has been made of Sigourney Weaver in her underwear
[17:08] Kathereene Kahanamoku: yes!! I would like to direct everyone to the link to a clip from Singin in the rain
[17:08] MoBecca Podless: generally, for a woman to have a voice, films have to make her physically tough, able to hang with the guys.
[17:08] DeSelby Zarco: i actually blogged about sigourney (but in relation to Planet Earth voiceover)
[17:08] Kathereene Kahanamoku: Whenever we get around to it
[17:08] Howl Yifu: ooh, ok tony, can you say more?
[17:08] MoBecca Podless: i do love me some g.i. jane
[17:08] Howl Yifu: katheeene - say again?
[17:08] Liz Finistair: haha
[17:09] DeSelby Zarco: just my concern about why the reception of her voice didn't go over that well (i didn't like it much iether)
[17:09] Rachel Geraln: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5sNLw4Rlvc
[17:09] Howl Yifu: can you summarize the reception?
[17:09] Kathereene Kahanamoku: about the first sixty seconds
[17:09] Howl Yifu: and why it didn't go well
[17:10] DeSelby Zarco: it made me a bit uncomfortable--they ended up selling it with the English version on DVD instead of hers
[17:10] DeSelby Zarco: which was done by a man
[17:10] Liz Finistair: why uncomfortable?
[17:10] DeSelby Zarco: (by English i mean British)
[17:10] Howl Yifu: got it. I'm sorry Katherene, I missed the direciton to the clip.
[17:10] Howl Yifu: Go look!
[17:10] Liz Finistair: I thought her voice was soothing in that
[17:10] Kathereene Kahanamoku: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5sNLw4Rlvc
[17:10] Kathereene Kahanamoku: about the first sixty seconds
[17:10] Howl Yifu: thanks
[17:11] Kathereene Kahanamoku: THis clip portrays a highly desirable body with a highly undesirable voice
[17:12] Kathereene Kahanamoku: high pitched, nasal, and heavily accented
[17:12] Slothrop Charlesworth: in the clip the woman in power sounds more masculine than the feminine child who has no power
[17:12] Kathereene Kahanamoku: exactly
[17:12] Kathereene Kahanamoku: and she asks the actress to utter jibberish
[17:13] Kathereene Kahanamoku: reaffirming what SIlverman was talking about--female voice being marked by irrationality and the unintelligible
[17:13] Kathereene Kahanamoku: in film
[17:14] Bhodi Silverman is really struck by the way the word "can't" sounds like a different c-word when pronounced "correctly" in that clip, and thinks that really makes the point.
[17:14] DeSelby Zarco: um, kinda
[17:14] Kathereene Kahanamoku: So while the voice is feminine it is not female
[17:14] DeSelby Zarco: but no more than can't would anyway
[17:15] Kathereene Kahanamoku: that is sexually identifiable as female
[17:15] Lindsey Ireman: I have to say it is interesting that the men are also silencing the voice of authority in the end
[17:15] moro Claven: Hey!
[17:15] Howl Yifu: Well, Bhodi: as if this is all about almost but not quite making explicit the sexualization, as if every word were the c-word
[17:16] moro Claven: hi all
[17:16] Howl Yifu: hello.
[17:16] Howl Yifu: Question: Isn't this scene that we've been pointed to intrinsic to film? Or rather, about film. A director asks the actress to utter words, not her words but those of another. So, why does become symptomatized in women and the voice of women? Why are women the hysterical voice of the medium?
[17:17] Rachel Geraln: After we discuss this clip I would like for everyone to go to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lHTsF2HFoc&feature=related and watch the clip from 2:20-2:50
[17:17] Minksy Maven: Re: Lindsey: yeah, if you watch the entire clip and dance scene, gene kelly quits the speech lesson and dances on - like saying enough of the lesson. the teacher has been silenced.
[17:17] Howl Yifu: i.e. talking movies are possible with a director making someone speak certain words.
[17:17] Rachel Geraln: this ties in nicely to what we wanted to talk about and Katherine got at in Women being hearing and Men being meaning
[17:17] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I really think this next clip will illustrate an answer to that question, Howl
[17:18] Howl Yifu: ok!
[17:18] Rachel Geraln: In this portion of the interview with Bette Davis she talks about the place of men in film and the need for actors
[17:19] Rachel Geraln: you can watch a little further as she talksa bout adlibbing a bit more
[17:20] Rachel Geraln: So thinking about this...could we say who exactly is disemboding voices and classifying the lack that we talked about earlier
[17:21] Kathereene Kahanamoku: She attributes all her success to male screenwriters
[17:21] Rachel Geraln: I mean even in talking about Angelina and Uma and action characters their bodies are so masculine that how can their voices be authentic?
[17:22] Slothrop Charlesworth: you'd have to dub it in like the girl in the exorcist
[17:22] Kathereene Kahanamoku: She really abhors the adlibbing of actors who want to just be themselves onstage
[17:22] moro Claven: MIYA HEEEE MIYA HOOOOO MIYA HAWWW MIYA HA HAAAA!
[17:23] Lindsey Ireman: though there aren't as many popular female directors, how are these questions complicated by people like Sofia Copolla (Sp?). Even her movies based on books have been written by females
[17:23] MoBecca Podless: not all of them
[17:23] Howl Yifu: well, part of this is a question of sorting out the role of the author/director relation, on the one hand,
[17:24] Lindsey Ireman: she may have more than I am aware of. Not a fan;-)
[17:24] Howl Yifu: i.e. does it / can it make a difference if the director is female etc.
[17:24] Freebyrd Sugarplum: it can, but it doesn't necessarily have to
[17:24] Slothrop Charlesworth: she still has to work within the framework set up by a male-dominated profession
[17:24] Howl Yifu: and on the other hand, sorting out if this is somehow intrinsic to cinema or the apparatus, or at least to "hollywood" as a system
[17:24] Rachel Geraln: Most definitely ... it lends some authenticity
[17:24] Kathereene Kahanamoku: It's an interesting politic--people can choose whether to be directed by a male or female voice on their GPS systems
[17:24] moro Claven: IM SOOO LONLEYYYYYYYY
[17:25] Howl Yifu: hee hee
[17:25] Howl Yifu: rachel: what lends authenticity?
[17:26] Rachel Geraln: lead to authenticity of a female role
[17:26] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I agree. It can lend authenticity, having a woman direct women in roles written by women
[17:26] Freebyrd Sugarplum: but
[17:26] Rachel Geraln: I mean we have all of these books like Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus
[17:26] MoBecca Podless: they still have to please the audience and have others to answer to
[17:26] Howl Yifu: well, silverman is interesting here.
[17:26] Freebyrd Sugarplum: even a lot of Cassavete's female actors said he understood women better than many women
[17:27] Rachel Geraln: and while we differ from human being to human being....our characters have to fit the audience
[17:27] Howl Yifu: on the one hand, she wants to find experimental women directors who undermine or displace the acoustic mirror apparatus,
[17:27] Rachel Geraln: and make up for whatever it is that he/she lacks
[17:27] Rachel Geraln: right
[17:27] Howl Yifu: on the other hand, it's clear that she';s uncomforable forcing this, i.e. assuming that women directors will undermine it.
[17:27] MoBecca Podless: i think many female directors try so hard to live up to expectations about portraying females in a certain way that they forget about have a good character instead
[17:28] Bhodi Silverman: Isn't there some danger, though, in the idea that that Cassavete could understand women better than many women, and isn't there a sort of sexism in that statement that might be attributable to the way in which actresses are taught to experience their femininity?
[17:28] Freebyrd Sugarplum: totally
[17:28] Howl Yifu: caviani is a good example: silverman has to work quite hard, dig deep, to discover alternatives
[17:28] Bhodi Silverman: (Although I can't believe I am making such an essentialist statement?)
[17:28] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I didn't read sexism in that statement. It's just what they said
[17:29] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I don't think they were necessarily suffering from a lack of self-examination by saying it
[17:29] MoBecca Podless: isnt it sexist to believe that men could never understand women?
[17:29] Freebyrd Sugarplum: totes.
[17:29] Howl Yifu: so, what is our assumption about the author-function in film then? aren't we saying here that films are statements of authorship more or less like books? is that true or useful?
[17:29] Howl Yifu: i.e. if we work back from the film to the director
[17:29] Rachel Geraln: I think it is both true and useful
[17:29] Bhodi Silverman: I don't think that's the issue; rather the suggestion that women can't understand themselves as well as this particular man.
[17:29] Slothrop Charlesworth: true in a sense, but the adlibbing makes it a joing authorship
[17:30] Freebyrd Sugarplum: It's true if there's the presumption that the director is the sole author
[17:30] Rachel Geraln: it creates an authentic character as imagined through the eyes/mind of the actor
[17:30] DeSelby Zarco: i got a sense that it wasn't all in the direction--but in the medium itself. at least that's what i thought i was seeing in the first chapter
[17:30] Kathereene Kahanamoku: In a joint authorship authenticity can still be maintained or achieved
[17:31] Howl Yifu: bhodi: certainly the claim for cassevetes fits a long chain of claims for male power as insight into women's psyche
[17:31] Slothrop Charlesworth: I agree, just pointing out a difference from a book (though even this could be argued)
[17:31] Rachel Geraln: but take someone like Drew Barymore...I would imagine that few of us have had experiences simillar to hers so her authenticity of a character might never be re-created even with the same director. I think what we have to take into account is the social dynamics that play to the Audience and his/her lack
[17:31] Kathereene Kahanamoku: instead of just the ears of the actor
[17:31] Howl Yifu: as well as a claim for the director knowing htings
[17:31] Rachel Geraln: I think we have to come back to that audience...for with out them there would be no film
[17:31] Rachel Geraln: so what do these representations say about who is listening/watching?
[17:31] beth Wasp: i can read a movie as a director's statement, but not in its entirety---I think that's what I learned from Silverman
[17:32] Rachel Geraln: that's a nice summation
[17:32] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I also think authenticity is a hard thing to accomplish in acting.. there are a lot of people that entirely miss it
[17:33] Liz Finistair: but isn't part of the point of acting to sort of fake authenticcity?
[17:33] Liz Finistair: minus one "c" in there
[17:33] Liz Finistair: So can we really say that there's an element of authenticity in the first place?
[17:33] Kathereene Kahanamoku: yep thats what i said
[17:33] Lindsey Ireman: exactlyliz.thatiswhatIwasjustthinking
[17:33] DeSelby Zarco: well otherwise there'd be a lot of downtime in film, sleeping, watching tv
[17:34] Lindsey Ireman: my space bar stoppped working. sorry
[17:34] Howl Yifu: well, is what we're after here iwth "authenticity" also a kind of progressive and utopic sense of possiblity for women subjects (all subjects)
[17:34] Howl Yifu: so, we want to know how to "correct" the acoustic miror"
[17:35] Howl Yifu: and this would include working with/through filmic ficitonality/diegesis, which, as liz points, is intrinsic
[17:35] Howl Yifu: we need to sort assertions about authorship in film (i.e. who the director is, what she intends, what would constitute authenticity) from statements about film and the filmic apparatus
[17:37] Howl Yifu: If, for example, the voice-body relation always articulates desire, is always *about* desiring production (produced by film, by the filmic apparatus). Then the question is which bodies and where. Silverman suggests that for women, this relation is always in some way dis-articulated and in quite strategic ways (basically to prop up / keep away male anxieties)
[17:37] Rachel Geraln: so is that why Uma thurman is still sad after she finally kills bill
[17:37] DeSelby Zarco: not to be the idiot in the room--but, okay, so what do we do with that?
[17:38] Liz Finistair: well, part of the problem is that all of it is gendered, right?
[17:39] Howl Yifu: Then we could cover a spectrum of cases of body-voice relations: Marilyn Monroe, Tilda Swinton, or [who is the star of Legally Blond?]; and strategies per Silverman, e.g. voice-overs, talking cures, breakdowns of voice, etc.
[17:39] Sabrina Loudwater: reese witherspoon
[17:39] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I think all of our discourse is gendered
[17:39] Liz Finistair: the "male" anxiety (which, if you go with the Lacanian revision of Freud, is actually just a human anxiety) is forced onto the "female" body. So how can that binary be dissolved?
[17:40] MoBecca Podless: why does it have to be neutral?
[17:40] Liz Finistair: Yeah, Kathereene, you're right, which makes the problem more...problematic
[17:40] Howl Yifu: Liz, this goes to tony's question too, of what do we do with this?
[17:40] Amelia Mistwalker: yeah, our discourse is culturally constructed
[17:41] Howl Yifu: but Liz also points this out in her blog: both genders (all humans) have this disarticulation of voice-body (its being human), and so the binary isn't really one at all
[17:41] beth Wasp: in this spectrum of cases then, we can look at the movie's (director's) perspective and attempt to recuperate moments of resistance?
[17:41] Liz Finistair: It doesn't have to be neutral, but at the same time, I guess what Silverman is trying to say is that it shouldn't be mysoginistic, either
[17:41] Howl Yifu: its a cultural binary - who runs the machine - and not an ontological binary
[17:41] MoBecca Podless: well, of course it shouldnt be mysoginistic---
[17:43] Howl Yifu: beth: i would think so, but the question, it seems to me, is if we assume resistance or not? how do we know when to look for it? are there special case directors - I'm thinking now of the Piano with Holly Hunter, very much about woman's voice. Who is that director? Sall yPotter?, no...
[17:43] Howl Yifu: so, do we look for resistance because we project an act of authorship onto the directer and if so which directors?
[17:43] Liz Finistair: Ooh, that's a good example, too, since the male body is very much on display in that film, too
[17:44] Howl Yifu: --yes, lots of Harvey Keitel.
[17:44] Liz Finistair: Ick, yeah.
[17:44] Freebyrd Sugarplum: So what about a female narrative voice authored by a man? Is Thelma and Louise inauthentic?
[17:44] Howl Yifu: I think the other modality of this question of resistance is perhaps genre along with authorship.
[17:44] Freebyrd Sugarplum: (Ridley Scott?
[17:44] Amelia Mistwalker: sorry--what movie?
[17:44] Howl Yifu: i.e. how does woman's voice work in horror films? pornography? comedy?
[17:45] MoBecca Podless: whats isn't more female than killing a dude whos raping your friend? right on, byrd.
[17:45] Liz Finistair: But, in the end, her "voice" is returned to a watery, almost womb-like state, while she then goes through the metaphoric rebirth, at which point Harvey Keitel teaches her language
[17:45] beth Wasp: last night i watched a 1956 movie called -a kiss before dying_, and I noticed that while the women were silenced (by murder/by men), they were the ones with evidence (but without realizing it). I'm interested in the idea--power without voice or realization--especially as voice is regained through evidence
[17:45] beth Wasp: that's a shoddy comment without movie summary...sorry
[17:45] Howl Yifu: liz: yes, and then there's the piano as stand-in for the film apparatus
[17:46] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I think that the cry Silverman talks about and the hysteria is still very much a motif
[17:46] beth Wasp: by the end of the movie, the evidence spoke for the women, and they were vindicated...don't know exactly what silverman would say...still thinking about it
[17:46] beth Wasp: "vindicated" I should say
[17:46] Slothrop Charlesworth: vindicated but dead? or did some escape?
[17:46] Liz Finistair: what was the evidence?
[17:47] beth Wasp: one dead, one alive without her sister though...
[17:47] Slothrop Charlesworth: even that movie is based on a novel by a man though right?
[17:47] Slothrop Charlesworth: Ira Levin?
[17:47] beth Wasp: evidence...letters, stuff she was wearing when mudered----yes...did not read the book
[17:48] Howl Yifu: evidence seems to differ from the body-voice complex. it persists/remains.
[17:48] Howl Yifu: this differs from humans that only speak in relation to desire and through desire.
[17:49] Howl Yifu: i.e. through the body-voice complex.
[17:49] Howl Yifu: i think evidence is similar to the naked body in the piano as well; also relates to horror movies in a way.
[17:49] beth Wasp: unless evidence captures the voice...as in letters or tapes or something though....
[17:49] Freebyrd Sugarplum: definitely
[17:49] Howl Yifu: but then its differnt, almost a reversal of the machine...
[17:50] Howl Yifu: katherine and rachel, we've drifted far from your presentations. are we missing htings?
[17:50] Howl Yifu: things?
[17:50] Liz Finistair: Yeah, evidence is, presumably, meant to be uncovered, whereas the apparatus is constantly trying to be concealed
[17:50] beth Wasp: yeah---i'm just riffing on the idea of where else women's voices might be in film
[17:50] Rachel Geraln: well this is great...different. I haven't seen any of these films...I don't do horror
[17:51] Freebyrd Sugarplum: How do you think horror fits into all this?
[17:51] Rachel Geraln: But I think we are getting at some issues...that probably can't be summed up or solved in a few hours
[17:51] Rachel Geraln: Well, Silverman focuses so much of her attention on these types of films
[17:51] Rachel Geraln: because the female is such an obvious part of it
[17:51] MoBecca Podless: theres the erotic aspect in horror--
[17:51] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I think horror comes into it with the concept of lack and castration anxiety
[17:51] Rachel Geraln: and agression and fear and submission
[17:52] Rachel Geraln: yes exactly Katerine
[17:52] Slothrop Charlesworth: any female "monsters" in horror movies?
[17:52] Freebyrd Sugarplum: yes, but now in the 21 years since she wrote it what maybe is different
[17:52] DeSelby Zarco: yeah, jason's mom
[17:52] DeSelby Zarco: mrs. vorhees
[17:52] Rachel Geraln: ...but we're still seeing remakes of these old films
[17:52] Rachel Geraln: and Scream for example
[17:52] Minksy Maven: there are female vampires in new movies
[17:52] DeSelby Zarco: but she's silent
[17:52] Rachel Geraln: I know what you did last summer
[17:52] Howl Yifu: Scream: perfect title! Acoustic mirror:.
[17:52] Minksy Maven: bride of frankenstein
[17:52] Rachel Geraln: who knows who any of the guys are in the movies...all I've ever heard about are Drew Barymore, Jennifer Love Hewit, etc.
[17:52] Liz Finistair: I watched a horror film over break...forget the name of it...but it's set in WV, and a religious couple is kidnapping hikers in the woods and forcing them to copulate to produce a baby for them
[17:53] MoBecca Podless: liz, thats amazing.
[17:53] Kathereene Kahanamoku: If the female characters/voices are used to satiate male psychosis, then the females terror represents that lack of male affirmation and security
[17:53] Slothrop Charlesworth: sounds like a family friendly hit
[17:53] Liz Finistair: it was interesting because the crazy woman tortured the girls while the crazy dude tortured the guys
[17:53] Liz Finistair: all the victims involved had the typical "cry" of the horror film, though
[17:53] Freebyrd Sugarplum: It seems to me like horror now is either extremely pro-feminist (Ginger Snaps) or the last refuge of misogyny/sexism/racism in pop film
[17:53] Howl Yifu: equal opportunity torture
[17:53] Rachel Geraln: so back to what Katerine was saying...this idea of terror could be gendered?
[17:53] MoBecca Podless: oh! blair witch
[17:53] Bhodi Silverman: Oh, I saw that Liz... and you're right, gender is constructed very strictly in it. I'm thinking of House of a 1000 Corpses, where the female voice is the one that drives the violence.
[17:54] Kathereene Kahanamoku: everyone is reduced to female in teh process of the stalking/killing
[17:54] Howl Yifu: Is the role of the body in horror - the need to open it, to reveal it - related to the body/voice relation Siliverman talks of?
[17:54] Lindsey Ireman is Offline
[17:54] Rachel Geraln: it is verymuch this masculine idea of divide and conquer!
[17:54] Sabrina Loudwater: _Mother's Day_ is a very female-driven horror film
[17:55] Howl Yifu: e.,g. if one goal of the acoustic mirror is to situate the voice in the female's body, is horror a way of localizing that voice to the scream and "extracting" it
[17:55] Kathereene Kahanamoku: all victims are made vulnerable, become emblems of the killers need for expression, and all are silenced
[17:55] MoBecca Podless: in horror films they often put the victims in the most vulnerable state--sex--before theyre killed. exposure in all aspects.
[17:55] Kathereene Kahanamoku: or most
[17:55] Amelia Mistwalker: Serial Mom--she tortured and killed daughter's exboyfriend and others
[17:55] Liz Finistair: Yes, Sandy, but it's important how it's extracted, particularly in thrasher films
[17:55] Rachel Geraln: so I think what Silverman is discussing places the women's roles in a place that their bodies cannot match their voices...because the fear is so bodily and physcologically
[17:55] Kathereene Kahanamoku: Which is gross because it gets the audience all sexually aroused before witnessing a gruesome event
[17:56] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I don't think that's the point a lot of the time
[17:56] Kathereene Kahanamoku: really uncool
[17:56] MoBecca Podless: because they prey on all of our basest emotions
[17:56] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I think, if anything, it's a morality play kind of thing
[17:56] Slothrop Charlesworth: yes, sinners need to be punished
[17:56] Liz Finistair: stabbing is super phallic (penetration, hello?), so extracting the cry is a form of reasserting the phallic power
[17:56] Slothrop Charlesworth: especially teenage sinners
[17:57] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I think the morality aspect is a way to make audiences ok with this kind of display
[17:57] Howl Yifu: OK, so a couple of questions are still floating around.
[17:57] MoBecca Podless: by that logic, bullets are phallic too.
[17:57] Liz Finistair: well, yeah
[17:57] Howl Yifu: 1) How far this complex of the acoustic mirror is still in play, given the hollywood apparatus/industry
[17:57] Lindsey Ireman is Online
[17:57] Howl Yifu: (bullets are phallic)
[17:58] Rachel Geraln: as are swords
[17:58] Rachel Geraln: as are arrows
[17:58] Howl Yifu: 2) another question is the extendability of this theory.
[17:58] Freebyrd Sugarplum: not everyone can get strangled
[17:58] Rachel Geraln: as are most weapons
[17:58] DeSelby Zarco: i think 2.) is where i'm SO lost. the lostest.
[17:58] Howl Yifu: does it apply to other films? does it apply to other media? (i.e. printed literature and woman's voice there?) does it apply to the real i.e. our bodies?
[17:58] MoBecca Podless: candlestick. lead pipe.
[17:59] Howl Yifu: in other words, how far beyond the cinematic apparatus?
[17:59] Rachel Geraln: it applies to the social construct of the audience...the theory that is
[17:59] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I don't know
[18:00] Howl Yifu: rachel: you would say it still applies today.
[18:00] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I was wondering about how the voice-over is used in television now
[18:00] Liz Finistair: I'm not sure we can say that it applies to the real, because, as Silverman poinnts out, film acts as a sort of stand-in for the real, and has then to work to cover over that gap between the filmic apparatus and the real
[18:00] Rachel Geraln: while it may be an accurate portrayal from different perspectives it is still essentially a ploy to make money
[18:00] Kathereene Kahanamoku: There are several shows that privilege the female voice/perspective
[18:00] Rachel Geraln: to inspire revenue, ticket sales, gym membersehips
[18:00] Kathereene Kahanamoku: but I don't watch enough tv
[18:00] Howl Yifu: liz - so we would have a range of film-like standins (iPhones, gps, driver's liceneses)
[18:00] Rachel Geraln: we see actresses endorsing Jenny Craig and other weight loss programs, the Bo Flex
[18:01] Howl Yifu: Kathereene: Sex in the City, for example?
[18:01] Liz Finistair: Totally
[18:01] MoBecca Podless: ug. desperate housewives? gross.
[18:01] Rachel Geraln: But isn't that even a bit of a strech....how we imagine women in NYC?
[18:01] Kathereene Kahanamoku: Gossip girl has a voice over
[18:01] Kathereene Kahanamoku: as does John and Kate plus 8
[18:01] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I don't know too many examples
[18:01] Rachel Geraln: I mean I for one don't wear designer clubs, drink martini's every day and sleep with Russian ARtists...
[18:02] Slothrop Charlesworth: kate is way more powerful than john
[18:02] MoBecca Podless: i do.
[18:02] Freebyrd Sugarplum: definitely. Sex and the city and Gossip Girl say terrible things about women, in my opinion
[18:02] Liz Finistair: ooh, that's a cool question: how does this extend to "reality" shows?
[18:02] DeSelby Zarco: ne tii
[18:02] DeSelby Zarco: ah, me too
[18:02] Rachel Geraln: but I think we like to imagine our fantasies and see them inacted on the screen
[18:02] Minksy Maven: me either....you're right James - Kate is the leader of that pack
[18:02] Howl Yifu: So, this model/theory fundamentally deals with phantasmic relations, and suggests we could discover them in a range of situations beyond the classical hollywood cinema.
[18:02] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I agree Freebyrd--but I haven't seen those shows much, just know there is a female voiceover
[18:02] Howl Yifu: reality tv is a cool thought; also music: female voice there...
[18:03] beth Wasp: i do think the acoustic mirror extends beyond film today; i like the things we're coming up with...I'm even thinking of the voice-overs in DVD sets where actors/etc. comment on action
[18:03] Liz Finistair: But wait, if this is all a marketing ploy, doesn't that mean that someone, at least on some level, understands that they also play on covering up our basic sense of lack?
[18:03] Liz Finistair: which would indicate that all forms of media outside the real have to play on the same thing in order to speak to us in some way?
[18:04] DeSelby Zarco: that seems unlikely
[18:04] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I think female artists have to work hard to have a unique/weird sounding voice
[18:04] Howl Yifu: liz: well, or that there are historical regimes of media that play the same thing or at least the same topics
[18:04] DeSelby Zarco: it seems more built in than intentional with all media
[18:04] Kathereene Kahanamoku: Because again the androgynous unfamiliar female form is desirable
[18:05] Freebyrd Sugarplum: But isn't that a form of inauthenticity? A self-consciously unique/weird voice?
[18:05] Kathereene Kahanamoku: the familiar is not as interesting
[18:05] Liz Finistair: but doesn't the historical regime of media stem from the constant need to suture over the "cut" that occurs in the production of various media?
[18:05] Kathereene Kahanamoku: if that voice is honest, it can be considered authentic as longas it is actual
[18:06] Kathereene Kahanamoku: even if that voice is not stable
[18:06] Kathereene Kahanamoku: peoples voices change over time
[18:06] Howl Yifu: liz: yes, even the historicity of the regime, i.e. the fact that we see it as a moment in a sequence of historical regimes, is suturing over the gap in being which is not historical at all
[18:06] Freebyrd Sugarplum: No, I agree. I'm just saying that going out of one's way to be unique doesn't ring true a lot of the time
[18:07] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I think that if women's voices are allowed this kind of authenticity, we may be on track to solving something of the problem presented by the acoustic mirror
[18:07] Liz Finistair: Katherine, that also brings back up the question of sound fidelity
[18:07] Howl Yifu: Freebyrd: this points to the fact that music has a level of narrative or diegesis (ficitonality) just like film
[18:07] Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
[18:07] Freebyrd Sugarplum: true, for sure
[18:07] Connected
[18:08] beth Wasp: i don't know how to understand honesty here though---perhaps we should address subjectivity instead of honesty?
[18:08] Howl Yifu: Katherine: One direction would be to explore experimental/alternative models of voice, whether by women' directors or not, and chart the "alternative" or the other cinema
[18:08] Howl Yifu: i.e. what other subject positions are there?
[18:08] Liz Finistair: that's a good idea, Beth...my brain was about to go to Butler's gender performativity, but subjectivity makes way more sense here
[18:09] Kathereene Kahanamoku: honest=genuine + actual
[18:09] Liz Finistair: actual as opposed to what?
[18:09] beth Wasp: yes, but we're dealing with constructions no matter what---
[18:09] Howl Yifu: so, how to teach a film class or a school of students how to create films with diverse subject positions
[18:09] Liz Finistair: true...
[18:10] beth Wasp: and women actors honestly portaying what male directors want...
[18:10] Liz Finistair: but the idea of "diverse" even delves into the inauthentic when you consider that eventually, it tends to stray into the "token"
[18:11] Howl Yifu: in completely improvisatoinal films or "documentary" we're still left with subject positions and how the subject speaks
[18:11] Howl Yifu: any thoughts on applying this to text? are there parralels in literary narrative/diegesis?
[18:11] Bhodi Silverman: Would diverse subject positions require more than a single director to be authentic?
[18:11] Kathereene Kahanamoku: actual having to to with time-action
[18:12] Howl Yifu: bhodi: perhaps? and then the question of the audience again - or of the technology - with dvds for example, are there different articulations there?
[18:13] Howl Yifu: i.e. with the ability to replay a scene or see it differently
[18:13] Kathereene Kahanamoku: alternative endings? commentaries? bloopers?
[18:13] Howl Yifu: exactly
[18:13] Kathereene Kahanamoku: ah
[18:13] Bhodi Silverman: Oh, what was the film that was shot in four panels, each supposedly from a different character's POV and all on screen at once?
[18:13] Howl Yifu: time code?
[18:14] Freebyrd Sugarplum: yep
[18:14] Bhodi Silverman: Yes, that's it.
[18:14] beth Wasp: for example, i think beyonce's voice is honi think there are parallels to text---I'm interested in metaphors of voice that go beyond the personal---beyond Mill's contention that poetry is overheard---this is very simplistic to me and doesn't allow for other subject positions beyond the eloquent/elevated
[18:14] Liz Finistair: I'm having a lot of trouble thinking of the female voice in a literary text (when I read it, it's really all my voice), but it does make me think of books on tape. Most readers will change their voice for different genders or even levels of femininity or masculinity
[18:14] beth Wasp: oops....my comment got messed up
[18:14] Bhodi Silverman: Was that an authentic portrayal of different POVs, or just a way to write the director's authority over each character more completely?
[18:15] beth Wasp: i think there are many women poets working ambitiously with voice in multiple, plural, and complex ways
[18:15] DeSelby Zarco: yeah, i just listened to a book that i had previously read by a male author, in a male voice (with a female narrating character), then bought the audiobook, which was in a female voice, it all sounded different
[18:15] Howl Yifu: i think we need to build a model of the authentic, that coordinates the visible body, the voice; not a single model either; but we'd need to do this to use the term
[18:16] Howl Yifu: um, getting delirious.
[18:16] Freebyrd Sugarplum: too much schnitzel?
[18:16] Rachel Geraln: or freud?
[18:16] DeSelby Zarco: all of it!
[18:17] Howl Yifu: liz and tony: suggests to me that this is best understood in relation to audible voice, not textual voice (which is too much in the head); different kidns of phantasm
[18:17] beth Wasp: gruner veltliner?
[18:17] Howl Yifu: yes too much gruner veltliner and wurst.
[18:17] Freebyrd Sugarplum: That can be your book title about your Austrian travels: "Schintzel and Freud"
[18:17] DeSelby Zarco: yes
[18:17] Liz Finistair: haha!
[18:17] Howl Yifu: and schwarzenegger. he's the most famous austrian.
[18:17] Slothrop Charlesworth: ha
[18:18] Howl Yifu: Well, do we feel like we discussed?
[18:18] DeSelby Zarco: well, we discussed--not sure what it feels like though
[18:18] Freebyrd Sugarplum: yes.
[18:18] beth Wasp: yes---though i do want to align textual voice with audible voice---(not now)---is that too ambitious?
[18:18] Howl Yifu: feels like tomorrow.
[18:18] Liz Finistair: Yeah, we discussed...but I'm with Tony.... Not sure we got anywhere
[18:19] Freebyrd Sugarplum: but I think the not-getting-anywhere is the answer
[18:19] Howl Yifu: beth: no, I think not too ambitious, but you'd need to figure out how the text creatse the body-voice relaiton or parallels it
[18:19] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I'm sorry you feel tha way
[18:19] Rachel Geraln: This book brings up a lot of issues that really cannot be resolved because we are a part of the ever changing aparatus
[18:19] Slothrop Charlesworth: sounds like a grad-school truism freebyrd
[18:19] Freebyrd Sugarplum: A little
[18:19] Howl Yifu: well, good presentations/instigations.
[18:19] beth Wasp: because i think textual voice metaphors say a lot about the history of how audible voice is consumed
[18:19] Rachel Geraln: thanks
[18:20] beth Wasp: yes..all very fun tonight----really awesome soundscape
[18:20] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I enjoyed our discussion
[18:20] Layla Afterthought: Thanks! =)
[18:20] Howl Yifu: and this book is fascinating but not perhaps the most user friendly. I think someone - Lindsey? - commented on the tone of it.
[18:20] Bhodi Silverman: Yes, awesome soundscape and instigation.
[18:20] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I thought the book was really interesting and different
[18:20] Howl Yifu: ok, I will post the transcript and send around the instructions.
[18:20] Lindsey Ireman: yes I did comment on the tone
[18:20] DeSelby Zarco: it's constantly "I'm NOT trying to say this"
[18:20] Freebyrd Sugarplum: yeah, tough read, for sure
[18:20] Lindsey Ireman: I didn't find it to be very inviting
[18:20] Amelia Mistwalker: Thanks from us!
[18:20] Slothrop Charlesworth: yeah this reading was the most dense for me
[18:20] Liz Finistair: Yeah, sorry I didn't say anything about the soundscape. It didn't load until like 20 minutes after we'd moved on in the discussion. But it was awesome.
[18:20] MB Vintner: yeah, awesome soundscape
[18:21] beth Wasp: i liked the reading...
[18:21] Kathereene Kahanamoku: enjoyed the sounds!
[18:21] Howl Yifu: Tony - yes, exactlly. that was key to the film theory discourse at the time, I think.
[18:21] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I agree, neat soundscape
[18:21] Howl Yifu: OK, I will post the transcript and send around the instructions for posting mp3s as well.
[18:21] Kathereene Kahanamoku: even the singing dancing dude who was here a minute ago
[18:21] Howl Yifu: He was so lonely.
[18:21] Liz Finistair: Aww, I missed that dude!
[18:21] Rachel Geraln: haha
[18:22] Liz Finistair: That must have been while I was crashed
[18:22] MoBecca Podless: numa numa
[18:22] Bhodi Silverman: LOL. Yeah, I wonder if we can get him to come problematize our actual classrooms.
[18:22] Howl Yifu: I think the dude was liz.
[18:22] Freebyrd Sugarplum: He also sang numa
[18:22] Liz Finistair: haha!
[18:22] Slothrop Charlesworth: burn!
[18:22] Freebyrd Sugarplum: HA
[18:22] Minksy Maven: haha a few people here in the CLC asked him to take our drink orders
[18:22] Liz Finistair: Nooo, you discovered my secret identity!
[18:22] Howl Yifu: ok. auf wiedersehen.
[18:22] Howl Yifu: See you next week.

i am a dj i am what i play :: sl chat from 3/9/09

[15:49] Howl Yifu: hi everyone
[15:49] Lindsey Ireman: alright.. back with dinner!
[15:49] Amelia Mistwalker: hi
[15:49] Freebyrd Sugarplum: Guten Aben.
[15:49] Lindsey Ireman: hi! How was the trip?
[15:49] Freebyrd Sugarplum: or is Morgen now?
[15:49] Freebyrd Sugarplum: ah
[15:49] Howl Yifu: no, it's midnite here
[15:49] Liz Finistair: Whoa! Too much volume on my end.
[15:49] Layla Afterthought: Sandy, you're the only one I can hear.
[15:49] Liz Finistair: That just scared the crap out of my cat
[15:49] Howl Yifu: yes, the sound has never worked well for me.
[15:49] Slothrop Charlesworth: haha
[15:50] Layla Afterthought: Aww, poor cat!
[15:50] Layla Afterthought: Should we just type then?
[15:50] Howl Yifu: yes. give it a schappes
[15:50] Freebyrd Sugarplum: it was me. I guess my sound works
[15:50] Howl Yifu: well, i think we should do all primary conversations via typing
[15:50] Layla Afterthought: I don't think my sound works at all.
[15:51] Howl Yifu: well, there's sound ssettings in the bottom rights of the screen
[15:51] Howl Yifu: you need to mess with them a bit to get it right.
[15:51] Howl Yifu: i've been to lovely concerts here (Second Life) but also found it really impossible to totally get the sound working
[15:52] Howl Yifu: so, I think do all primary communication via typing.
[15:52] Howl Yifu: direct us to your blog or reading / listening via this
[15:52] Layla Afterthought: Ok
[15:52] Slothrop Charlesworth: Hey!
[15:52] Howl Yifu: well, let's wait about 10 more minutes for others to arrive.
[15:52] Howl Yifu: how are things at wvu?
[15:52] Howl Yifu: new president, yes?
[15:52] Freebyrd Sugarplum: yeah, and he's an actual academic!
[15:52] Lindsey Ireman: I heard today that virginia kleist resigned from faculty senate
[15:53] MB Vintner: and not from wv
[15:53] Freebyrd Sugarplum: unlike that last fella
[15:53] Lindsey Ireman: so thats big news I suppose. heh
[15:53] Howl Yifu: i think he's good. --> oo hadn't heard about virginia.
[15:53] Howl Yifu: she's a good person. i wonder what's up with that?
[15:53] Howl Yifu: here there's much mourning of the recently dead far right politician - or rather, he's mourned where i am and scorned as a neo-nazi in the rest of the country
[15:54] Lindsey Ireman: that I dont know. I just heard it via grapevine
[15:54] Howl Yifu: hmm.
[15:54] Layla Afterthought: (when everyone is typing at the same time like this, it kind of looks like the zombie apocalipse.... just sayin')
[15:54] Amelia Mistwalker: sandy. nick hales here. any special setup required for audio chat.
[15:54] Howl Yifu: nick, are you wearing a dress?
[15:54] Amelia Mistwalker: or do i just need to turn it on
[15:54] Layla Afterthought: Haha!
[15:54] Amelia Mistwalker: i am
[15:55] Amelia Mistwalker: nick crossdresser
[15:55] Howl Yifu: - well, you need to mess with the controls on the lower right of the screen
[15:55] Howl Yifu: there's a button that will set you to do audio whenever you speak or, alternatively, only when you press it.
[15:55] Howl Yifu: but, again, as stated earlier, it's sort of hit or miss.
[15:55] Freebyrd Sugarplum: might we have a run-through of who people actually are? I can tell for some, but obviously not others
[15:56] Amelia Mistwalker: i heard you sandy. hit and miss as you said
[15:56] MB Vintner: MB is Matt Buchanan
[15:56] Howl Yifu: Sure, we should all say who we are. But also, good to have a persona/avatar. We should all be DJ Something...
[15:57] Slothrop Charlesworth: James here
[15:57] Rachel Geraln: Hahah. This is rachel
[15:57] DeSelby Zarco: I'll be DJ Jujube
[15:57] DeSelby Zarco: i'm tony
[15:57] Layla Afterthought: I'm layla, obviously, and evenyone in a pink dress is instigating! Heh.
[15:57] Freebyrd Sugarplum: Dj Freestyle Sugarbear
[15:57] Minksy Maven: This is Mary
[15:57] Freebyrd Sugarplum: (and jason freeman)
[15:57] Lindsey Ireman: Lindsey here of course :-)
[15:57] Howl Yifu: got it. the instigation clones.
[15:57] MoBecca Podless: rebecca
[15:57] Liz Finistair: Liz here, evidently
[15:58] Slothrop Charlesworth: DJ Mute
[15:58] MRF Hammerthall: Martina
[15:58] Howl Yifu: martina - excellent outfit
[15:58] Howl Yifu: i think everyone is here! how many are in the clc?
[15:59] Minksy Maven: 2
[15:59] Howl Yifu: ok.
[15:59] Minksy Maven: plus Nick
[15:59] DeSelby Zarco: how do you sit?
[15:59] Howl Yifu: click on something (right click) and there's a sit option
[15:59] Bhodi Silverman is Online
[15:59] Layla Afterthought: right click on a spot
[15:59] Howl Yifu: good to keep text short - a few lines or sentences.
[16:00] Howl Yifu: this keeps / avoids too much overlap.
[16:00] Howl Yifu: some overlap is fine, natch, it's in the nature of the medium
[16:00] Layla Afterthought: It's kinda hard to type and keep up with what's ebing said
[16:00] Howl Yifu: yes. some of it is just getting used to it.
[16:00] Layla Afterthought: Hehe, I'm sure we'll be fine
[16:01] Howl Yifu: ok. well, you're there, i'm here, we're all in this other place
[16:01] Howl Yifu: just reviewing: next week is spring break, correct?
[16:01] Layla Afterthought: Yep!
[16:01] Lindsey Ireman: correct
[16:01] Liz Finistair: yep
[16:01] Howl Yifu: ok. so then back in two weeks after this.
[16:01] Rachel Geraln: yep
[16:01] Howl Yifu: now, let's see how this goes. i'll say a few things, then turn it over to layla and amelia.
[16:02] Amelia Mistwalker: ok
[16:02] Howl Yifu: feel free to interrupt if there's really confusion - we'll work it out.
[16:02] Howl Yifu: also, you can im another person/avatar and this will break in on the screen for thim -
[16:02] Howl Yifu: a good way to tell me if somethings awry, etc.
[16:03] Freebyrd Sugarplum: how do you sit if you don't a right click? (mac user here)
[16:03] Howl Yifu: click on communicate (lower left) and then im
[16:03] Howl Yifu: dunno on the mac
[16:03] Howl Yifu: anyone know?
[16:03] MoBecca Podless: the command/apple button
[16:03] MoBecca Podless: and click
[16:03] DeSelby Zarco: (i tried ctrl click, nope)
[16:03] Freebyrd Sugarplum: thanks
[16:03] Howl Yifu: well, you look artful standing.
[16:03] Howl Yifu: i love the way the arms go up before sitting.
[16:04] Howl Yifu: well, let's talk for a bit about dj spooky and then about final essays, ja?
[16:04] Lindsey Ireman: sounds good
[16:04] Layla Afterthought: Alright, do I just go ahead ans start with DJ Spooky?
[16:05] Howl Yifu: i'm interested in how this book brings together a certain number of the topics discussed so far: citation, noise, literariness, the apparatus, models of history, the role of originality...
[16:05] Howl Yifu: - just a moment Layla -
[16:05] Layla Afterthought: k
[16:05] Howl Yifu: and interested in the format of the book - and how it interfers/contribites to theses topics.
[16:06] Howl Yifu: But yeah.: let the instigators go. Layla and or Amelia? And feel free to direct us to your blogs -
[16:06] Layla Afterthought: I'll go ahead and start.
[16:06] Layla Afterthought: Here's the link to my blog
[16:06] Layla Afterthought: oh, can't post links...
[16:06] Layla Afterthought: laylaalbedawi.blogspot.com
[16:06] Howl Yifu: yes, should be able to. but it's on the bloglist.
[16:07] Layla Afterthought: Alright, so I talk a lot on my blog about what the book actuay is, or is supposed to be.
[16:07] Layla Afterthought: I was curious what kind of general opinions there were about it....
[16:07] Layla Afterthought: so what better place to look than Amazon reviews!
[16:08] Layla Afterthought: Anyway, you get people saying the book is anything from a text book, to "poetry" or
[16:08] Layla Afterthought: some other form of art/collage, to complete nonsense....
[16:08] Layla Afterthought: one person said it was just extensive liner notes for the CD, and that it shuld best be ignored, heh.
[16:09] Layla Afterthought: I wanted to start by asking what exactly you thought the book was.
[16:09] Layla Afterthought: And whether you think the book supplements the CD or the other way around.
[16:09] Layla Afterthought: Or both.
[16:09] Liz Finistair: I'm going to go with both.
[16:09] Bhodi Silverman: That's a really great question.
[16:09] DeSelby Zarco: I never got my hands on the cd, but the book seemed to outline a philosophy
[16:09] Slothrop Charlesworth: I felt like the book is a manifesto in defense of sampling
[16:10] Liz Finistair: It seems to me that the book and CD are his theories in action
[16:10] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I think it's interesting that the library of congress classification is that it's "technology and civilization"
[16:10] Layla Afterthought: I agree with the manifesto
[16:10] Lindsey Ireman: hmm...I think they operate best together. I personally have read it three times. And the best occasion reading it was while listening to the cd
[16:10] Amelia Mistwalker: yes, what slothrop said
[16:10] Freebyrd Sugarplum: that it's so encompassing supports the idea of it being a manifesto
[16:10] Layla Afterthought: I read it before listening to the Cd.
[16:10] Rachel Geraln: Yes I agree with Lindsey
[16:10] Howl Yifu: i grew frustrated with the noise but high on the riffs in the book
[16:10] Rachel Geraln: I started out just reading it and then I put the cd in
[16:10] Amelia Mistwalker: but i think that this book could apply to many other works of Dj Spooky's
[16:11] Layla Afterthought: Yes.
[16:11] Bhodi Silverman: I had just assumed, because of my own interest in text, that the book was primary... but now that you bring it up, I see how this mirrors the way in which sampling really engages the listener/reader as part of the process. What signified to me may not be what signified to someone else.
[16:11] Howl Yifu: is the cd sequenced tothe book?
[16:11] Howl Yifu: i mean, how closely does it follow the book?
[16:12] Liz Finistair: It seems that they're both ways of showing how older "texts" of any form can be rethought (remixed, he would say), and made into something newly artistic
[16:12] Lindsey Ireman: ya know, I didnt pay THAT much attention...as in trying to match tracks to chapters or anything. I'm generally probably too slow a reader for a real matchup.
[16:12] Rachel Geraln: I didn't feel like it followed it that closely but when I would stop to think about what he was saying in the text I would get a different perspective listening to the lyric/rythem of the music
[16:12] Layla Afterthought: I tried finding stuff on the CD that he referenced in the book, but I don't think there was much, if any.
[16:13] Howl Yifu: So, the book is an example of the cd and vice versa, in a way; the songs are maybe not examples of what he references but do the same thing.
[16:13] Howl Yifu: loved those pants
[16:13] Layla Afterthought: Haha!
[16:13] Lindsey Ireman: haha
[16:13] Amelia Mistwalker: I can't tell if the cd and book are truly related...I mean, the cd could be listened to without the text, obviously
[16:14] Howl Yifu: and the book w/out hte cd
[16:14] Layla Afterthought: I think both work on their own, but both are in a way examples of the same thing.
[16:14] Howl Yifu: im interested in DeZelby's notion that this enacts a philosophy
[16:14] MoBecca Podless: i agree with layla--and i can't imagine that the cd is put together without thought
[16:14] Freebyrd Sugarplum: At least from how Spooky describes his own music in the printed text, it seems that he's trying to do the same things in his music
[16:14] MoBecca Podless: w/o some order
[16:14] Howl Yifu: (note: all the conversation will be saved and sente around later)
[16:14] Layla Afterthought: A related question I had: is the book successful at "translating" DJing and sampling into written/graphic format?
[16:14] Lindsey Ireman: agreed. there was obviously great care in the production of the book and the way the cd was inserted into the book as well as with tying in graphic design
[16:14] DeSelby Zarco: I know it wasn't the ideal situaion (reading the book w/o the cd), but I never felt like I needed the text
[16:14] Lindsey Ireman: I felt it better to approach them all as parts of a whole
[16:15] DeSelby Zarco: DeSelby the me? or DeSelby the philopher?
[16:15] Amelia Mistwalker: Right, reading the book after listening to the cd makes more sense to me
[16:15] Freebyrd Sugarplum: for sure, Amelia
[16:15] Rachel Geraln: I think it is intersting though, the argument that he makes for remixes and then the idea of including an actual cd seems so finite
[16:15] Bhodi Silverman: I agree the book works on it's own... if you've already been exposed to the music. The imaginary reader, though, who had not... I think that reader, who Miller would say wasn't "literate" in music... would need the CD
[16:15] Howl Yifu: both. well, what did you feel it informed you of?
[16:15] Rachel Geraln: final*
[16:15] Slothrop Charlesworth: Maybe he wants us to sample from his samples
[16:15] Howl Yifu: Rachel: do you mean this as a limitation?
[16:16] Layla Afterthought: I like that he didn't give instructions or suggestions whether to read first or listen first.
[16:16] Rachel Geraln: yes a litlte
[16:16] Howl Yifu: and lindsey: we definitely should talk about the role of the format.
[16:16] DeSelby Zarco: The thought of taking pieces--the way that it each piece (song, text, book) is a collection of smaller things made to be rearranged
[16:16] Slothrop Charlesworth: reminds me of the poems taken from novels (forget the name)
[16:17] Howl Yifu: the book seemed messier to me than the cd, looser, but is that a function of the tradition of books as being more closed?
[16:17] Liz Finistair: It can't be finite, though, just because it's packaged up. Otherwise, songs would never be made. The packaging just seems like a brief stopping off point before someone else, or the original author comes back to it.
[16:17] Howl Yifu: ooh, nice liz
[16:17] Lindsey Ireman: do you mean messy in style or in actual publication. There were seval typos I noticed
[16:17] Rachel Geraln: that's a good point but I think alot of what he is thinking and aluding to is the dynamic...I think it could even tie into some of what Buroughs said
[16:17] Lindsey Ireman: as I just made a typo myself
[16:17] Layla Afterthought: To me it seemed that you can take any fragment of the text and any track on the CD and rearrange them however you like.
[16:17] Howl Yifu: that's the editor in you. do djs make typos?
[16:18] Layla Afterthought: Speaking of Typos: he likes to miss-spell German names, heh.
[16:18] DeSelby Zarco: It's messy all around, every other page to have those not very catchy catch phrases
[16:18] Rachel Geraln: and just the idea of putting it all together and not letting it breathe and move and live with the readers seemed .. I don't know... sad
[16:18] Lindsey Ireman: haha I don't know.
[16:18] Minksy Maven: DJs may make typos (think they do), but we may not know it as we listen.
[16:18] Amelia Mistwalker: this dj made typos!
[16:18] Howl Yifu: but i found the cd familiar, whereas the book was less so, felt almost unreadable; not always in an interesting way
[16:18] DeSelby Zarco: this dj be warren g
[16:19] Freebyrd Sugarplum: Yeah, just as a real music afficianado would recognize "typos" in dj-ing, I think we're probably going to notice more in print
[16:19] Lindsey Ireman: I agree. some of it was trying for a kind of freestyle (perhaps?) that fell short stylistically for me
[16:19] Howl Yifu: rachel - can you say more? do you mean the cd was really closed off? how could it be different? perhaps mp3s the reader / listener could mix?
[16:19] DeSelby Zarco: he seemed to have a desire to take on that dj voice. i joked with matt that he actually says "flip the script" more than once. it's like a parody of that voice
[16:19] Rachel Geraln: I felt like it would have worked better with an online text maybe
[16:19] Layla Afterthought: I found it very readable, once I reconciled myself with the fact that maybe not all of it needs to be "understood" in a traditional sense.
[16:20] Rachel Geraln: one that could be responded too and shared...in connection to the music
[16:20] Howl Yifu: - layla, like this chat!
[16:20] Layla Afterthought: I think he's just going for a general feel of the text....
[16:20] Layla Afterthought: Haha, yes.
[16:20] MoBecca Podless: but isn't djing playing outside the rules--making us hear what wouldn't else be heard? typos are typos becuase theyre based on established rules. apples and oranges.
[16:20] Liz Finistair: That's an interesting point, Rachel. he is all about technology, and to have something so analog seems odd in conjunction with his philosophy
[16:20] Howl Yifu: Rachel - this question of sharing is vital.
[16:20] Layla Afterthought: You just pick up.... what you pick up.
[16:20] Rachel Geraln: so that as topics, ideas, groups shared it moved and swayed and worked more like a sampling
[16:20] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I don't know that Spooky would have wanted an even less conventional printed text. He writes about how much respect he has for the printed word, its history, etc
[16:20] Rachel Geraln: that's true
[16:21] Slothrop Charlesworth: interesting too that he seems against academia but published this through a university press
[16:21] Howl Yifu: Layla: so, we need to move - as critics - between our desire for meaning and the overall vibe of the thing
[16:21] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I know!
[16:21] DeSelby Zarco: and he works at one too, right?
[16:21] Howl Yifu: slothrop: yes, i find this series ("pamphlet") a bit trite
[16:21] Freebyrd Sugarplum: he seems to eschew the academy so much, but that seems like his target audience, too
[16:21] Layla Afterthought: Pretty much. One of the people on Amazon claimed that if you spend enough time with the text, it'l all make sense.... I think it doesn't all HAVE to make sense.
[16:22] Layla Afterthought: Just like you can like a song without understanding all of the lyrics.
[16:22] Howl Yifu: Layla: A kind of appropriateness to this kind of blog response, because the amazon reviews have a sort of collaged, dj-d, sample culture response to things - perhaps in the best and worst way...?
[16:22] Layla Afterthought: Replications as reply?
[16:22] Slothrop Charlesworth: and the reviews allow for inclusivity, all can write reviews, not just those with publishing power
[16:22] Howl Yifu: hmm, say more layla.
[16:22] DeSelby Zarco: and yeah, audience is key, if just bought a mix for something to dance to, i'm not sure how receptive to the accompanying manifesto i'd be
[16:23] Howl Yifu: slothrop - yes, this goes to the ethics and limits of sampling/free cutlure
[16:23] Layla Afterthought: I thought it interesting to see replications as replies... it implies that no copy is ever the same as the original...
[16:23] Layla Afterthought: there is always automatically something new in it, responding to the original.
[16:23] Howl Yifu: I think MattB made a similar point in his blog.
[16:24] Layla Afterthought: And just as there is no 100% copy of something, there is also nothing that is 100% original.
[16:24] Howl Yifu: or rather, he asked after this replicative difference.
[16:24] Howl Yifu: - liz as well
[16:24] MB Vintner: yeah, and i think i answered my question about non-sampled music, that spooky sees it as citation and synthesis
[16:24] Howl Yifu: Layla - or everyone - on this notion of sampling or replication, are there things that can't be sampled?
[16:25] MB Vintner: even though it's not directly sampled
[16:25] Slothrop Charlesworth: silence?
[16:25] Howl Yifu: Matt: you were dealing wiht music that doesn't use sampling - which is interesting - raises the question of whether there's a kind of value involved here (if you don't sample you suck...)
[16:25] Layla Afterthought: As to silence: didn't Cage sue some guy for making a "silent" track?
[16:25] DeSelby Zarco: there's plenty that would be difficult to sample
[16:25] Liz Finistair: define "can't." If you mean legally, sure. Technologically, potentially.
[16:25] Bhodi Silverman: I think that question is really problematized by current work in physics, which suggests that everything is a holograph, thus recorded, thus sample-able if the technology existed?
[16:26] Minksy Maven: so far, i think you can sample everything, including silence
[16:26] Howl Yifu: liz: so it might be that only the law holds together the analog/continuum that can't be sampled
[16:26] Liz Finistair: There are things that are so impromptu and dependent on that moment's experience that they can't be recaptured, but the essense or feeling of them can
[16:26] Layla Afterthought: I think I agree with Mary.
[16:26] Howl Yifu: bhodi is my dharma
[16:26] Bhodi Silverman: It also suggests the possibility of perfect fidelity, which also problematizes things. Ha ha!
[16:27] Howl Yifu: so, if everything is samplable technically, if not legally, then intellectual property becomes a crucial questoin, yes?
[16:27] Slothrop Charlesworth: Yes. I questioned this in my blog.
[16:27] DeSelby Zarco: i did the same--more about WHY we care so much
[16:27] DeSelby Zarco: in defense of IP
[16:28] Howl Yifu: why do we care?
[16:28] Layla Afterthought: Yes, but if we go with the idea that nothing is ever an exact copy of what came before, but instead something completely new, that would also get rid of the concept of plagiarism, right?
[16:28] Lindsey Ireman: definitely. There is an ethics involved in sampling for sure. What can be creatively claimed and how do the boundaries of authorship change
[16:28] Slothrop Charlesworth: Seems more acceptable to sample sounds than to sample written words
[16:28] Lindsey Ireman: but this seems more of a problem in western culture...the idea of ownership.authorship than in other cultures
[16:28] Minksy Maven: absolutely. and perhaps as much as people want and possible deserve IP rights, we can't irgnore intertextuality
[16:28] Liz Finistair: but doesn't context and intent make a difference here, too?
[16:28] Layla Afterthought: I like DJing, because sampling is expected.
[16:29] Layla Afterthought: It's pretty much a given.
[16:29] Bhodi Silverman: I think that, culturally, this is being addressed by folks like the EFF and the people behind the Creative Commons movement. What does it mean to "own" a piece of the culture?
[16:29] Liz Finistair: If the intent is to pass something off as yours, that becomes an ethical problem, too.
[16:29] Howl Yifu: note: the difference between sizes of samples. 1) i sample/copy the actual words.
[16:29] Howl Yifu: 2) i connote or invoke.
[16:29] Layla Afterthought: So you don't really HAVE to explicitly say that it's not all "original"
[16:29] Liz Finistair: But if the intent is to create something new from what's already come before it, then it becomes a question of artistic value
[16:29] Howl Yifu: the problem is the size of the frame here.
[16:29] DeSelby Zarco: it's like that Lego metaphor, i guess the block size matters
[16:29] Amelia Mistwalker: my blog's a bit about what layla said that this helps get rid of the concept of plagiarism
[16:29] Howl Yifu: the problem of the size of the frame is tied to "literature."
[16:29] Howl Yifu: literature is where it's not clear the size of the frame.
[16:30] Howl Yifu: it may be very small or very large but it is fuzzy.
[16:30] Lindsey Ireman: I just like the notion of "sampling" being used as a word rather than "stealing". there are musical lawsuits all the time for something something too "similar" to another song, but sampling gets by.
[16:30] DeSelby Zarco: but i liked the connection that ALL literature is copied on some level, we'll sample, at a minimum, words from a larger piece, even characters
[16:30] MB Vintner: kenneth goldsmith took a day's new york times and made it into a book
[16:30] Layla Afterthought: Because sampling gives credit?
[16:30] MoBecca Podless: sampling is usually a kind of tribute--not a rip off
[16:30] Howl Yifu: intertextuality: the crucial thing about it is the point where it becomes transtextuality - not where did this come from but it came from nowhere
[16:30] MB Vintner: just typed it up
[16:30] Slothrop Charlesworth: and we're taught to "sample" in scholarly essays, really we're made to in the name of "research"
[16:30] Amelia Mistwalker: yes. lawrence lessig in his book remix says that the copyright laws are a bit outdated
[16:31] Howl Yifu: yes, goldsmith follows a practice of noncreativity
[16:31] Amelia Mistwalker: (his is the quote on the back of Rhythm Science
[16:31] Amelia Mistwalker: )
[16:31] Howl Yifu: if we imagine a totally sampled culture -- everything free -- what are the ethics? is there any attribution? is attirbution the answer?
[16:32] Howl Yifu: (i.e. how do we mediate between the "good" thing of sharing)
[16:32] Slothrop Charlesworth: you have an ethical responsibility to create something worthwhile? beyond that I can't see much
[16:32] Howl Yifu: (and the good thing of wanting to create)
[16:32] MB Vintner: by creative commons work it seems to be that attribution is a big part
[16:32] DeSelby Zarco: good answer slothrop, haha
[16:32] Bhodi Silverman: Sampled or samble-able? Because I tink you could argue that all culture is totally "sampled" from it's own history?
[16:32] Howl Yifu: yes, mb that seems to be lessig's answer
[16:32] Howl Yifu: Bhodi - this would bring us back to literature as well.
[16:33] Sit by pool(female model setup ) RED: snarkl Aeon, say '/1 Hide' to hide me, or '/1 Show' to make me show. Or just right-click and sit on me to use me.
[16:33] Howl Yifu: another thought: is the point where I say "this is sampled" or this is the sample
[16:33] Howl Yifu: is that actually the sample? or is that an act of attribution/power on me part? i'm invoking culture at that moment?
[16:33] Amelia Mistwalker: It seems like attribution is polite. Sampling would be the polite thing to do (like now you can steal).
[16:33] Liz Finistair: But doesn't pointing out the sample diminish the point of the larger work it's sampled into?
[16:34] Howl Yifu: ---> i'm not sure what will happen if you mess with that snarkl aeoen
[16:34] MoBecca Podless: he frightens me.
[16:34] Layla Afterthought: Other culture have a different understanding of plagiarism. In Asian countries, it's considered a "good thing" to use other people's concepts to make your own points, without citation.
[16:34] DeSelby Zarco: In a way, i think so, liz. like when you watch a girltalk video, and you can visually see all the smaller pieces, it takes a bit away
[16:34] Freebyrd Sugarplum: i don't necessarily think it diminishes the original work, liz
[16:34] Liz Finistair: Isn't part of what Spooky was saying that half the fun is finding the meaning for yourself? And that would indicate a need to only give credit but not specifically locate the credited thing
[16:34] Lindsey Ireman: right layla thats what i was getting at too
[16:34] Layla Afterthought: so.... does that mean that over time, things like sampling might change the way we think about intellectual property?
[16:34] Howl Yifu: ownership is culturally and historically circumscribed - medially as well, if we believe ong
[16:35] Howl Yifu: james - can you say more about how you see sampling relating to literary practice, either authorship or criticism?
[16:35] Layla Afterthought: In the book he quotes Goethe saying something about how his work is influenced by the voices of hundreds of others...
[16:35] Amelia Mistwalker: yes, but I was really annoyed that I had trouble figuring out what samples were coming from where. Attribution is nice so that you can find the original samples again (like a works cited page with a research paper and in text citations)
[16:36] Howl Yifu: or think of whitman: "i am large, i contain multitudes"
[16:36] Layla Afterthought: in Goethe's times, it was commonly accepted to take plays from other countries (France etc) and "adapt" them.
[16:36] Howl Yifu: amelia - say more.
[16:36] Layla Afterthought: And those works were counted as "originals"
[16:36] DeSelby Zarco: and biggie is also large
[16:36] Slothrop Charlesworth: I think Spooky links musical sampling to sampling in literature. He also says sampling is writing.
[16:36] Howl Yifu: the comfort in sources or attribution is the comfort of presence, of the object, of the self
[16:37] Howl Yifu: - think also of the name "dj spooky" as a literary persona, pen name, replication
[16:37] Amelia Mistwalker: Mary's elaborating now...
[16:38] Amelia Mistwalker: (we're both in the CLC)
[16:38] Freebyrd Sugarplum: yeah, because he even samples his name partly from something Burroughs wrote
[16:38] Bhodi Silverman: Who was the poet who wrote in multiple voices, none his own? I can't believe I can't think of him...
[16:38] Howl Yifu: ok, mary bring it on.
[16:38] snarkl Aeon: Look at my pants
[16:38] Howl Yifu: bhodi: pessoa. portuguese poet.
[16:38] Howl Yifu: some of the personas were english language.
[16:38] Howl Yifu: nice pants
[16:38] Bhodi Silverman: THank you. That's it.
[16:38] Amelia Mistwalker: sort of like creative commons (there are different licenses, but to my understanding, you are ALLOWED to do more with it)
[16:38] Minksy Maven: i think Amelia's getting at the fact that attribution helps with research and broadening the knowledge base, but we can do that without the limits of IP rights. In other words, Amelia and I are thinking that it should be about sharing knowledge, not necessarily about rights, power, money.
[16:39] Liz Finistair: But doesn't that also come down to individuality in a capitalistic society?
[16:39] Amelia Mistwalker: IP=intellectual property (copyright, trademarks, etc)
[16:39] Liz Finistair: Even Spooky's got undertones of this when he talks about needing to do something to make cash when he was living at the Gas Station
[16:39] Slothrop Charlesworth: Couldn't getting rid of attribution actually limit the knowledge available rather than make it more available?
[16:40] Howl Yifu: so, amelia and mary, vis a vis liz: is there a sharing that doesn't imply subjects in a differential relation?
[16:40] Bhodi Silverman: I think there is also something of wanting to retain "ownership" in Miller's insistance on the idea of the artist... the privelaging of the mixer.
[16:40] Howl Yifu: liz - yes, totally. isn't this book about inflating the persona "dj spooky"?
[16:41] Howl Yifu: he may like to share but he's the biggest sharere on the block
[16:41] DeSelby Zarco: well it's stil a skill
[16:41] Howl Yifu: hm, DeSelby: say more?
[16:41] DeSelby Zarco: there's the argument that everyone can do it, but it won't always be good stuff
[16:42] Howl Yifu: like the butcher in the taoist parable
[16:42] Minksy Maven: we don't want to get rid of attribution (giving credit), but we think it'd be ok to get rid of the capitalistic power that we're used to going along with that attribution.
[16:42] DeSelby Zarco: i don't know this parable, but sure
[16:42] Amelia Mistwalker: multiple people have said the same thing--helping to locate one source of info could be helpful in someone's research/own knowledge base
[16:42] Bhodi Silverman: But what is the value of criticism... of good vs. bad "stuff"... if the medium is intended to bring the interior into the public?
[16:42] Howl Yifu: it's a question of making the right cut
[16:42] Liz Finistair: But if everyone really could do it, wouldn't it likely become hyper-commodified, just like the homogenous pop culture Spooky rails against?
[16:42] Amelia Mistwalker: yeah--like having to pay to use someone else's pictures or ideas
[16:42] Howl Yifu: bhodi - do you mean we would no longer have a critical culture? is this more ore less where the amazon reviews are at, for example?
[16:43] MRF Hammerthall: Get lost!
[16:44] Bhodi Silverman: Sandy, I think there is at least the question of why we would WANT a critical structure when we are talking about sampling and bringing the interior into shared space?
[16:45] Howl Yifu: this points, i think , to dj spooky's utopianism. where does he see us going?
[16:45] Howl Yifu: and is it coherent (thinking of lindsey's blog, which pointed out contradictions)
[16:45] Howl Yifu: - and liz's blog as well.
[16:46] Lindsey Ireman: I certainly question its coherency, but then again this could go back to a sampling culture. Its like assembling various pieces, or parts of the multitude, to try and make new meaning. But the pieces don't necessarily come together or link well between chapters.
[16:46] Howl Yifu: - this is the pause, the slow song after the house beat
[16:47] Howl Yifu: Lindsey: in your blog I saw you negotiating between Spoooky's notion of a total renewal and of sources.
[16:47] Howl Yifu: It may be, however, that this paradox between source and copy, whcih layla has suggested needs to be discplaced -
[16:47] Howl Yifu: is only paradoxicaly if we hold onto notions of ownership
[16:48] Howl Yifu: but: the contradiction Lindsey points to is the contradiction of history.
[16:48] Howl Yifu: I'm thinking also of Liz's blog, which addressed spooky's techno-utopianism.
[16:49] DeSelby Zarco: i haven't had a chance to read the other blogs--can somone elaborate?
[16:49] Howl Yifu: - i.e. the repeated claims that the new sampling culture would correct difficiencies in the past culture - also deficiencies in ourself -
[16:49] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I think Sit sort of seems to be a hard-won utopianism he's talking about though, right?
[16:49] Liz Finistair: Well, part of what I was trying to get at was that you can't simultaneously live the technology and be 100% aware of the fact that you're living the technology
[16:49] Slothrop Charlesworth: so only in hindsight then?
[16:50] Howl Yifu: Freebyrd: like the idea of hard won utopianism. say more?
[16:50] Howl Yifu: liz: yes, I think liz in her blog was questoining spooky's claim that we will increasingly "engage in soundmaking technologies that are as ingrained as the need for air"
[16:51] Howl Yifu: she wanted to know how could do this - spooky suggests it involves activly participating in something that is part of our essence as humans...
[16:51] Liz Finistair: He seems to want us to be constantly critical of stagnation in both the self and the culture, but at the same time, he wants us to feel the ability to sample from historical contexts
[16:51] Freebyrd Sugarplum: well, the quote that sums it up is about how we have the ability (even the responsibility) to reshape the world no matter how tightly conglomerates and older artists try to control these processes
[16:51] DeSelby Zarco: i think you're right liz, but I also think that it's hard not to be aware of the technologies we have--especially in the presence of those that don't
[16:51] Howl Yifu: Or, we might ask, surely we are already participating in our essence by definition? Aren't claims that we are somehow apart from what we are theoretical claims that fabricate a history?
[16:52] Howl Yifu: freebyrd: yes, good citation. suggests that there is always a utopian potential.
[16:53] Liz Finistair: There's always a utopian potential, but there's never a utopia. That's the problematic thing about Spooky's idea.
[16:53] Liz Finistair: At what point does his work become the conglomerate that needs to be overturned?
[16:53] Freebyrd Sugarplum: good question
[16:53] Slothrop Charlesworth: maybe as soon as it's published, he's made it fair game
[16:53] Howl Yifu: so: it owuld be interesting to figure to tie utopianiam to sampling in music and in literary citation
[16:54] Howl Yifu: in other words, if i cite - and i always am - i am affirming the potential of literature to say something different and to repeat.
[16:54] Freebyrd Sugarplum: but it seems like he'd be more than happy to have someone try to overthrow him
[16:54] Howl Yifu: utopian without utopia.
[16:54] Layla Afterthought: yeah, freebyrd
[16:54] Howl Yifu: - freebyrd: you win me over man. i find him a bit more self-important at times.
[16:55] Layla Afterthought: and although he says that all critiques end up being sucked up by what they're critiquing, he seems to exclude himself from this.
[16:55] Freebyrd Sugarplum: No, he is at times. I'd just be interested in reading something he writes 30 years from now when he IS that "older generation of artists"
[16:55] Layla Afterthought: Well, one of the amazon people called the book full of "self-referrential boasting".....
[16:55] Liz Finistair: But would he be more than willing to admit that his work has become conglomerate? Wouldn't that require the kind of pop culture academic criticism he condemns?
[16:56] Layla Afterthought: but..... how self-referrential can boasting be, when all your work is full of samples of other epople's work?
[16:56] Howl Yifu: rachel made excellent points about his use of personas. this allows willful gathering of cultural power but also play.
[16:56] Lindsey Ireman: his self-righteousness is on the cover of the book itself. he doesnt just use a moniker, but his real name as well. He claims both identities and seems to place himself at once in a freeware open source utopianism through that moniker, but in a captialist culture by crediting his given name as well
[16:56] Liz Finistair: Ooooh, awesome point, Layla
[16:56] Howl Yifu: perhaps we should all adopt personas - use them to promote ourselves - use them to write differnet kinds of things
[16:56] Bhodi Silverman: Lindsey, great point.
[16:56] Rachel Geraln: i would like to see what those personas would create at least
[16:57] Minksy Maven: if he can, we can. it sounds like fun.
[16:57] Howl Yifu: another interesting practice is "public use personas" like Luther Blissett.
[16:57] Howl Yifu: This is a invented persona that anyone can adopt for different purposes.
[16:57] Bhodi Silverman: Or like Howl Yifu?
[16:57] Layla Afterthought: About what Minksy said: did anyone look up erratum errata online?
[16:57] Slothrop Charlesworth: haha
[16:57] Howl Yifu: heh
[16:58] Freebyrd Sugarplum: Or Alan Smithee
[16:58] Howl Yifu: yes, or ned ludd
[16:58] Howl Yifu: say you want to do something and fear political repercussions - you use such a personal
[16:58] Howl Yifu: um, layla and amelia: did you want to say more?
[16:59] Howl Yifu: and/or direct us to listen/view?
[16:59] DeSelby Zarco: it's on layla's blog (it's diorienting me now)
[16:59] Howl Yifu: should we watch it layla? (what is it?)
[16:59] Layla Afterthought: Well I looked at the errata erratum thing online
[16:59] Layla Afterthought: before you go there, I can explain a bit:
[16:59] Howl Yifu: please.
[17:00] Layla Afterthought: he mentions it in the book.
[17:00] Layla Afterthought: Basically, it's a visual/sound collage type thing
[17:00] Layla Afterthought: and you as a viewer/listener can control it.
[17:00] Layla Afterthought: It takes a while to figure out.
[17:00] Layla Afterthought: The visuals are from the original piece by Duchamps
[17:00] Layla Afterthought: And the words are also Duchamps.
[17:01] Layla Afterthought: DJ Spooky put everything together with a beat.
[17:01] Howl Yifu: got it. take a look now if you haven't
[17:01] Layla Afterthought: But then the viewer/listener gets to rearrange the visuals/sounds however he/she likes.
[17:01] Layla Afterthought: I played around with it for a while...
[17:01] Layla Afterthought: and at first "my" stuff sounded pretty bad.
[17:01] Howl Yifu: (it's slow to load for me here in the alps)
[17:01] Layla Afterthought: But after a while it all kind of sounds equally alright.
[17:02] Liz Finistair: Sorry to interupt, but just a quick question: did Spooky design the interactive website thing? Or did someone else do that?
[17:02] Howl Yifu: no, layla: you need to say "DJ Layla's stuff sounded excellent"
[17:02] Slothrop Charlesworth: ha
[17:02] Layla Afterthought: Hahahaha! Yes.
[17:02] Freebyrd Sugarplum: that's right
[17:02] Bhodi Silverman laughs.
[17:02] Layla Afterthought: I'll be releasing the album soon.
[17:02] Howl Yifu: this is promotion/symbolic capital. make the claim.
[17:02] Layla Afterthought: So in a way, DJ Spooky makes all of us "artists"
[17:02] DeSelby Zarco: yeah, the literal "spinning" and ability to relocate the spinning seems to fit his ideas
[17:03] Layla Afterthought: HIS contribution is handing us the utensils.
[17:03] Howl Yifu: spin - spin. nice!
[17:03] Layla Afterthought: The original sounds and visuals are not his, either.
[17:03] Layla Afterthought: Haha, yeah
[17:03] Layla Afterthought: So his "art" was putting it together in a new way"
[17:03] Howl Yifu: well, his records aren't either yes? they're largely remixing.
[17:04] Howl Yifu: so is life.
[17:04] Layla Afterthought: Yeah. Only on the records
[17:04] Layla Afterthought: he decided on the final mix.
[17:04] Layla Afterthought: on Erratum Errata, we do.
[17:04] Howl Yifu: - i think we've done a good job thinking about the cultural/sampling argument.
[17:05] Howl Yifu: any other thoughts on the format of the book? why the playboy bunnies? (a question kathernine raised)
[17:05] Layla Afterthought: haha, good question
[17:05] Slothrop Charlesworth: just another sampling from pop culture
[17:05] Lindsey Ireman: "we just read it for the stories?"
[17:05] DeSelby Zarco: or the need to put the imagine of the disc on every page
[17:05] Lindsey Ireman: hehe
[17:05] DeSelby Zarco: it was really ugly
[17:05] Howl Yifu: ha!
[17:05] Howl Yifu: well, culture of the image, certainly.
[17:06] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I thought it connected to the prostitution theme at the end
[17:06] Bhodi Silverman: Slothrop... but wy THAT sampling? Is anything ever "just sampling" and without significaiton?
[17:06] Howl Yifu: perhaps also an argument for "using up" o fthe image
[17:06] Layla Afterthought: oh, good point
[17:06] Howl Yifu: katherine: yes, how so? why the prostitute here?
[17:06] Freebyrd Sugarplum: well, there's the hole through the Napster kitty's head, too. Sorta looks like a bullet hole
[17:06] beth Wasp: the images also create a kind of noise--visual noise
[17:06] Kathereene Kahanamoku: yeah
[17:06] Howl Yifu: one way of thinking of the bunnies is of a kind of claim for "hip"
[17:07] DeSelby Zarco: is playboy hip?
[17:07] Kathereene Kahanamoku: hippity hop
[17:07] Howl Yifu: -- that's why i said "claim"
[17:07] Howl Yifu: but it was perceived as hip at one time (hippety hop is kind of funny tho)
[17:07] Layla Afterthought: It's one of those symbols that are utterly recognizable and more and more detatched from their original context.
[17:08] Howl Yifu: yes, this is beth's point too - a kind of reference but also emptying out
[17:08] Liz Finistair: It is interesting to think about the hole through the middle, though, too.
[17:08] Slothrop Charlesworth: I hated the red button (to hold the cd in). Kept falling out of the back of the book
[17:08] Howl Yifu: the question is whether this image (any image) is used up
[17:08] Howl Yifu: liz - say more?
[17:08] Liz Finistair: It's not "whole," but it is a cultural sample
[17:08] Lindsey Ireman: production wise putting those holes in every page sure wasnt cheap
[17:08] Howl Yifu: slothrop - yeah
[17:08] Lindsey Ireman: nore the gloss finish on the graphics pages
[17:08] Howl Yifu: mit press has a big budget
[17:09] Liz Finistair: there's something lacking in its completeness here, but Spooky seems to fill that lack by sampling it in with other graphics
[17:09] Amelia Mistwalker: me, too James
[17:09] Slothrop Charlesworth: maybe he wants the book to not look like a university press book. he succeeds in that
[17:09] Howl Yifu: so: whole in the middle as record / absence at center / yes, good question of filling it.
[17:10] Howl Yifu: katherline - what's your take on the figure of the prostitute here. anyone - what is spooky doing with this figure?
[17:10] DeSelby Zarco: i had a harder time with prostitute than the idiot
[17:10] Liz Finistair: And interestingly, it all culminates in the CD. So we're back at the beginning: maybe the CD is the point of it, and the book is just a way of getting to it.
[17:10] DeSelby Zarco: where he started
[17:10] Howl Yifu: (deselby: try saying that five times fast)
[17:10] beth Wasp: do we read it as a hole (with "wholeness") or as an aspect of the book that, by allowing it to cite CDs/records, signifies that it can be played--that it needs a device and user
[17:11] DeSelby Zarco: oof
[17:11] Howl Yifu: liz: the whole as occluded source, as site of citation
[17:11] Liz Finistair: Ooh, awesome point, Beth
[17:11] beth Wasp: it's a conceptual record of sorts
[17:11] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I thought it was related to how djs and prostitutes try to be/make people believe what they want
[17:11] Howl Yifu: But Deselby: yes, I wonder about the prostitute. I mean, it's a sort of trite trope, as if to say "we're sample whores," but isn't it an explotative trope as well?
[17:11] DeSelby Zarco: "what do you want from me"
[17:12] Howl Yifu: Katherine: yes, make others believe and allow others to use.
[17:12] MoBecca Podless: ultimate capitalism
[17:12] Slothrop Charlesworth: prostitutes are capitalism
[17:12] Howl Yifu: This goes back to the persona. The persona is a form of use - the persona says "use me,"
[17:12] DeSelby Zarco: yeah but with the idiot as the one who processes information and merely spits it back out, the prostitute isn't even really rehaping a whole lot
[17:12] MoBecca Podless: not use me--but i'm available for a price
[17:12] DeSelby Zarco: *reshaping
[17:13] Howl Yifu: We can say prostitutes are capitalism - and at the same time need to balance this with the specific differences between, say, the way a bank employee is used and the way a sex worker is used.
[17:13] Liz Finistair: depends on the bank
[17:13] Freebyrd Sugarplum: semantics
[17:13] Howl Yifu: oof
[17:14] Liz Finistair: not literally, mind you, but in a way, all of us are being used in the same sort of manner
[17:14] Howl Yifu: deselby: i like this question of the idiot vs prostititue distinction.
[17:14] Howl Yifu: both involve quesitons of citation/sampling as well.
[17:14] Howl Yifu: idiot by definition does not speak or at most merely repeats.
[17:15] Howl Yifu: the prostitute, by contrast, reworks / recites with desire.
[17:15] MoBecca Podless: levels of control
[17:15] Howl Yifu: creates a mask/personas/citation via commodified desire.
[17:15] Howl Yifu: liz: yes. even the proper name (anyone's) says "use me"
[17:16] Howl Yifu: but the proper name also says "cite me" and recite me
[17:16] Howl Yifu: there are only series --> or spins, that's my new word for it!
[17:16] Howl Yifu: hmm.
[17:16] DeSelby Zarco: not to knock on prostitution, but doesn't that sort of make this rhythm science seem sort of base and artless
[17:16] Amelia Mistwalker: true. I had a hard time when we first got on here not knowing who people were in order to attribute comments to those who said them
[17:17] Slothrop Charlesworth: he may want to demistify art in the same way a prostitute demistifies sex
[17:17] Howl Yifu: DeSelby: or rather, makes it seem a kind of bourgeios adaption of the "dangerous" (the prostititue)
[17:17] MoBecca Podless: transactions---of different things--services, ideas, persuasion
[17:17] Howl Yifu: some of it is Baudelaire, however, who developed the notion of the "flaneur"
[17:17] Howl Yifu: i.e. the cultural worker who recycles
[17:17] Howl Yifu: and who also invokved the prosittute in this context
[17:18] Howl Yifu: then taken up by Walter Benjamin, in the same way, to think about reproducibility
[17:18] Howl Yifu: (why might see a series here between control of reproducibility and the libidinal intensity [prostititue, desire in citation])
[17:19] Howl Yifu: Amelia, did you get to point us / instigate as you wanted to?
[17:19] Kathereene Kahanamoku: doesn't spooky say "so many people [to be], so little time
[17:19] Amelia Mistwalker: I haven't yet
[17:19] Howl Yifu: amelia, please do so.
[17:20] Amelia Mistwalker: ok...
[17:20] Howl Yifu: i.e. direct, tell, enlighten!
[17:20] Amelia Mistwalker: my blog is ameliamartinsblog.blogspot.com
[17:21] Amelia Mistwalker: and I'd like to start out by watching the second link on my blog
[17:21] Howl Yifu: ok. we should watch now?
[17:21] Amelia Mistwalker: (in the fourth paragraph)
[17:21] Amelia Mistwalker: yes
[17:21] Amelia Mistwalker: and for those who can't see it, I'll summarize
[17:22] Howl Yifu: plz
[17:22] MoBecca Podless: um...is amelias blog blank for nayone else?
[17:22] Layla Afterthought: click on march!
[17:22] Howl Yifu: http://ameliamartinsblog.blogspot.com/2009_03_01_archive.html
[17:22] Lindsey Ireman: it was blank, but if you click on march it works
[17:22] Bhodi Silverman: You have to click on March, MoBecca
[17:22] MoBecca Podless: thanks
[17:22] Amelia Mistwalker: yeah, click on March
[17:23] Freebyrd Sugarplum: ais it the Colbert video, Amelia?
[17:23] Layla Afterthought: Love the remix!
[17:23] Lindsey Ireman: my comp cant seem to do youtube and 2ndlife together sound wise
[17:23] Howl Yifu: summerize for me, on lo-bandwith in the alps
[17:23] Amelia Mistwalker: okay, so a summary for those who can't watch and have secondlife open at the same time: on The colbert Report, Lawrence Lessig and Colbert have an interview (about Lessig's book, Remix")
[17:24] Howl Yifu: ok
[17:25] Amelia Mistwalker: and in that interview, Colbert tells viewers that they do NOT have his permission to remix that interview to a sweet dance tune, and the link is someone's remix of the interview to a sweet dance tone.
[17:25] Howl Yifu: kool
[17:25] Amelia Mistwalker: basically, this part of my blog's about copyright
[17:25] Amelia Mistwalker: *tune
[17:26] Amelia Mistwalker: so, this sort of brings us back to the question of what's new/original?
[17:27] Amelia Mistwalker: as Dj Spooky says " you can always squeeze something out of the past and make it new", but is this really "new"?
[17:27] beth Wasp: and new isn't always original
[17:27] Amelia Mistwalker: right, or innovative
[17:27] Howl Yifu: so, one set of categories is "original" and innovative that are value categoires
[17:27] Howl Yifu: not necessarily tied to the temporal categories - make it new...
[17:28] Liz Finistair: Can we consider parody new and/or innovative? It seems that that Colbert Report was relying heavily on sampling widely understood and conventional remixing
[17:28] beth Wasp: but "original" and "innovative" are tied temporally to certain things---cultures, histories, technologies, movements, etc.
[17:28] Lindsey Ireman: but there are elements of newness...certainly a layer of irony or humor has been added which didnt exist before
[17:28] Freebyrd Sugarplum: Totally, Lindsey
[17:28] Minksy Maven: good point
[17:29] Freebyrd Sugarplum: is it the technique or the message
[17:29] Howl Yifu: so, the new always contains the possiblity of irony and humor - self-reflection built into newness
[17:29] Howl Yifu: liz: isn't this a problem of the performativity of parody? ie does it "do" anything and if so what?
[17:29] Amelia Mistwalker: the third link is something similar but what dj spooky did (a remix of Rolling Stones satisfaction--but I don't think it was changed that much--just skipped--and president Bush "saying" something that he doesn't say
[17:30] Lindsey Ireman: I suppose that same newness could be added turning a power ballad into a sad country song...or johnny cash singing nine inch nails
[17:30] Lindsey Ireman: text can remain the same but impact may change
[17:30] Howl Yifu: amelia - what's your take on these remixes?
[17:30] Bhodi Silverman: Good example, Lindsey. That was a huge "newness" put over tha tsong.
[17:30] Amelia Mistwalker: right Lindsey--and so parodies are allowed (think of weird al yankovich)
[17:31] Liz Finistair: In a way, it does seem like parody functions in a similar way to remixing, especially in the way that Spooky argues for. It's taking bits of historical "literature" and making it into a form of cultural critique or cultural newness
[17:31] Layla Afterthought: I agree, Liz
[17:31] Howl Yifu: of course, there are different performativities of parody.
[17:31] DeSelby Zarco: i'm not seeing a good argument against this stuff
[17:31] Howl Yifu: weird al is "safe" in a way? right?
[17:31] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I for one listended to white and nerdy a lot more than ridin dirrty
[17:31] Slothrop Charlesworth: how safe?
[17:31] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I'm not joking, but I totally knew we'd get to Weird Al.
[17:31] DeSelby Zarco: unless coolio is invovled, then look out weird al
[17:31] Howl Yifu: whereas other parodies are much more unsettling
[17:31] Liz Finistair: But Weird Al also has to get permission from the original artists, which brings up back to IP
[17:32] Slothrop Charlesworth: not political (safe?)
[17:32] Freebyrd Sugarplum: Does it matter if he's safe? Can't funny be new without being safe/political
[17:32] Slothrop Charlesworth: Yeah P.Diddy didn't want him to sample
[17:32] Amelia Mistwalker: my take on these remixes is that it all depends on the person (seems to be my answer a lot) and what is being remixed. like for the rolling Stone one, not much was changed--just stopped and started again (like a broken record)
[17:32] Howl Yifu: freebyrd, sure
[17:33] DeSelby Zarco: but what about Devo's version of satisfaction, sounds like a completely unrelated track
[17:33] DeSelby Zarco: it sounds like devo (except the words are different)
[17:33] DeSelby Zarco: is one better than the other (spooky's or devo's?)
[17:33] Amelia Mistwalker: so, to make something new, it should be ADDED TO (the ongoing conversation) and not just paused here and there...even though sometimes it could be something entirely new
[17:33] Amelia Mistwalker: basically, I have no answer
[17:33] Howl Yifu: amelia, this is a n important point
[17:34] Howl Yifu: the question of what is added is essentially an aesthetic question
[17:34] beth Wasp: remixes symptomize the inevitable merging of soundscapes; parodies symptomize differently I think...but I'm not sure what to say here.
[17:34] Howl Yifu: literature poses thes questoin: what is added
[17:34] Slothrop Charlesworth: interpretation
[17:34] Layla Afterthought: true
[17:34] Layla Afterthought: but is that always the case?
[17:34] beth Wasp: there's simultaneity in the mix more so than in the parody.
[17:35] Howl Yifu: i note the later quote in amelia's blog "creativity rests in how you recontextualize the previous expression of others
[17:35] DeSelby Zarco: which is why i feel that remixing is ultimately a good thing--if nothing is added, who will really care about the remix enough for it to be a problem?
[17:35] Howl Yifu: so, a question of how you quote/recontextualize as adding
[17:35] Kathereene Kahanamoku: I think this gets into humans' captivation with diffeent forms of themselves--the familiar in an unfamiliar form is always sublime to people
[17:36] Howl Yifu: again, think of limits: on the one hand, the mix or citation that is exactly like the original
[17:36] Layla Afterthought: The way he defines creativity completely makes obsolete the "traditional" way of understanding creativity.
[17:36] Minksy Maven: parody is recognized as fair use in some instances too
[17:36] Howl Yifu: (e.g. pierre menard [borges] or van sant's psycho)
[17:36] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I think that's why we like a good cover of a song, too. the familiar in unfamiliar form
[17:36] Layla Afterthought: Howl: doesn't he claim that's impossible? There are no exact copies?
[17:36] Howl Yifu: on the other hand, the one where the reference is so fleeting as to not be there - the question is to understand this economy
[17:36] Liz Finistair: What about mixing one's own work? Is that still as creative and new as mixing others' work?
[17:36] Layla Afterthought: So basically any copy is automatically "new"
[17:36] Liz Finistair: And how does that change the idea of thinking of oneself in new ways?
[17:36] Layla Afterthought: Good question, Liz...
[17:37] Slothrop Charlesworth: and if each copy is new, nothing is ever "finished":
[17:37] Howl Yifu: liz - yes, what if I repeat my own piece. is it new?
[17:37] Howl Yifu: Series
[17:37] DeSelby Zarco: bands do that all the time, usually with bad responses
[17:37] Bhodi Silverman: Isn't that ultimately a fidelity question? What is the difference between an iteration and the original?
[17:37] Kathereene Kahanamoku: everything will be a noew form--no same song for the same crowd
[17:37] Layla Afterthought: I think you can remix yourself.... you're still removed from the work in terms of time, at least.
[17:37] Howl Yifu: I want to know: Amelia or others, what do you make of Colbert's saying "no remixes"?
[17:37] Liz Finistair: Hmmm. The bad response makes me wonder what remixing is really saying about the self, then.
[17:38] Layla Afterthought: And I guess every time an artist performs live on stage, that's kind of a remix.
[17:38] Liz Finistair: You can only make a new statement about the form and function of the self if you didn't actually start with yourself?
[17:38] MoBecca Podless: is it a remix or simply, different?
[17:38] Lindsey Ireman: well Cilbert himself is a persona, so how literally do we take his "no remixing" claim?
[17:38] Lindsey Ireman: colbert sorry
[17:38] Layla Afterthought: it's different, but isn't it also a different interpretation?
[17:38] Amelia Mistwalker: well he was just kidding really--he wanted his viewers to make a remix of it and to play it in danceclubs (he was joking when he said that, I think)
[17:38] MB Vintner: "no remixes" is complete control of the self and how it's presented
[17:38] Howl Yifu: well, first off his statement is a form of authority. it creates a boundary.
[17:39] Howl Yifu: amelia's right too: he/we know he's kidding. his statement creates parody in advance, out of all that follows.
[17:39] Slothrop Charlesworth: Colbert is a remix of bill O'reilly
[17:39] Freebyrd Sugarplum: I think Colbert would looove the idea of someone crossing that boundary
[17:39] Howl Yifu: sweet.
[17:39] Bhodi Silverman: /laughs at Slothrop and agrees.
[17:39] Layla Afterthought: so the original artist had a LOT of agency, in this case.
[17:39] Lindsey Ireman: well it also shows he made a response video
[17:39] Lindsey Ireman: to the remix video
[17:40] Howl Yifu: layla: but only as a persona, as "colbert" who is very specifically giving us himself to be used...
[17:40] Layla Afterthought: Right.
[17:40] DeSelby Zarco: the poor guy hasn't broken character in years
[17:40] Layla Afterthought: hehe
[17:41] Freebyrd Sugarplum: Colbert the tv persona is to Spooky the subliminal kid (there's an analogy for the SATs
[17:41] Liz Finistair: haha
[17:41] Lindsey Ireman: haha
[17:41] Slothrop Charlesworth: as mashed potatoes are to french fries
[17:41] Howl Yifu: freebyrd: ok, and then you need the third part, let's say Jospeh Stalin.
[17:41] Amelia Mistwalker: ahhh it all makes sense, now Jason
[17:41] Howl Yifu: ok, it's 145am here.
[17:41] Layla Afterthought: to a certain extent, don't all musicians set themselves up to be sampled, simply by making music, commercially?
[17:41] Freebyrd Sugarplum: that's a toughy
[17:42] Slothrop Charlesworth: yes I think so. Putting themselves out there
[17:42] Howl Yifu: layla, surely yes. to be public is to put yourself into a sampling position.
[17:42] Layla Afterthought: so in a way, they're all agents in their being sampled.
[17:42] DeSelby Zarco: but isn't it (often) a compliment to be sampled?
[17:42] Liz Finistair: But to copyright it is to say, "Don't remix."
[17:42] Slothrop Charlesworth: or is to copyright to say, pay me to remix
[17:43] Layla Afterthought: "Don't remix without permission"
[17:43] Howl Yifu: deselby: well, again, like the different modes of parody, we could talk about modes of sampling
[17:43] Layla Afterthought: yeah
[17:43] Layla Afterthought: it would be fun if a major musician chose to release an album and not copyright it. Wait.... has this happened?
[17:43] DeSelby Zarco: yeah
[17:43] Amelia Mistwalker: yes, which doesn't seem fair since you don't have to pay to quote someone else's words
[17:43] DeSelby Zarco: NIN
[17:43] Layla Afterthought: haha, knew it. Duh.
[17:43] Freebyrd Sugarplum: radiohead sort of did
[17:44] DeSelby Zarco: sent out his tracks all split up to be remixed
[17:44] Layla Afterthought: I was thinking Radiohead, didn't know if they copyrighted.
[17:44] Liz Finistair: well, I don't know, didn't Paris Hilton copyright "That's hot"?
[17:44] Layla Afterthought: hahahahaha!
[17:44] Minksy Maven: i agree. remixing is ok in terms of copyright as long as someone's getting paid. but don't you have to pay if you use a certain percentage of people's words?
[17:44] Amelia Mistwalker: haha I think she tried and failed
[17:44] Howl Yifu: someone copyrighted the word "truth."
[17:44] Layla Afterthought: crazy
[17:44] Minksy Maven: she didn't copyright it - nor did Donald Trump copyright "You're fired."
[17:44] Howl Yifu: OK. I'm losing steam here - so early in the morning.
[17:44] Liz Finistair: we should copyright the word remix.
[17:44] DeSelby Zarco: I copyrighted all words beginning with the letter N
[17:45] Slothrop Charlesworth: ha
[17:45] Freebyrd Sugarplum: michael buffer: "Let's get ready to Rumbbbbbllllleeee!" (copyrighted)
[17:45] Slothrop Charlesworth: I think howl is trying to give us a hint
[17:45] Lindsey Ireman: someone also compyrighted the happy birthday songwhich is why restaurants sing bad versions now
[17:45] Amelia Mistwalker: ya think?
[17:45] Howl Yifu: Do you have thoughts or questions towards the final paper/project?
[17:45] Liz Finistair: Yeah, slowly ushering us towards our coats and the door.
[17:45] Layla Afterthought: oh really? I didn't know that, Lindsey...
[17:45] Howl Yifu: Note: the examples on the syllabus all are about sampling (Strange Fruit and My Way).
[17:45] Howl Yifu: Could be good paper topics.
[17:45] Lindsey Ireman: finap paper...is there a proposal of anykind due soon?
[17:46] Layla Afterthought: Howl: I sent you an email about the soundscapes
[17:46] Rachel Geraln: how many outside sources?
[17:46] Howl Yifu: yes, layla got that.
[17:46] Howl Yifu: sources: none necessary.
[17:46] DeSelby Zarco: quick syllabus question, martina and i are instigating next week, Rhythm Science is on it again, do you want us to pay a lot or a little attention to that?
[17:46] Liz Finistair: Are you still in the process of commenting on the blogs, Sandy? I posted an idea for a paper topic on there a few weeks ago, if you are.
[17:46] DeSelby Zarco: or focus on the new stuff?
[17:46] Howl Yifu: DeSelby: next week is spring break, right?
[17:46] Freebyrd Sugarplum: yep
[17:47] DeSelby Zarco: oh twoweeks then
[17:47] Howl Yifu: no, two weeks is someone else? since the syllabus got mixed. hold on.
[17:47] Kathereene Kahanamoku: Acoustic Mirror is coming to a verandah near you!
[17:48] Howl Yifu: ach, my connection is off. Look at the blog.
[17:48] Howl Yifu: yes, katherine and mary? in two weeks.
[17:48] DeSelby Zarco: really?
[17:48] Howl Yifu: deselby and martine in three. focus on the other dj spooky book.
[17:48] Howl Yifu: re the final papers: no outside sources required.
[17:48] Howl Yifu: can be based totally on material from the syllabus.
[17:48] Rachel Geraln: ok
[17:48] Howl Yifu: but, you can bring in outside sources if you want.
[17:49] Rachel Geraln: ok good
[17:49] Howl Yifu: say you're working on a project or in an area and want to develop a topic there - do it, no problem
[17:49] Freebyrd Sugarplum: thanks for the leeway
[17:49] Minksy Maven: I'm not paired with Katherine...it must be someone else in 2 weeks
[17:49] Slothrop Charlesworth: will we discuss google docs at some point closer to the paper due date?
[17:49] Kathereene Kahanamoku: katherine and rachel next time
[17:49] Rachel Geraln: No it's you
[17:49] Rachel Geraln: we're in 3 weeks
[17:49] Howl Yifu: so, the syllabus says that by 4/20 you should post a short abstract (200 words) to your blog of the paper
[17:50] Kathereene Kahanamoku: oh uuups
[17:50] Howl Yifu: james: yes, I can discuss google docs next time.
[17:50] DeSelby Zarco: yeah i think it's martina and i in two
[17:50] Slothrop Charlesworth: great thanks
[17:50] Lindsey Ireman: ooh ok. great. thanks. didn't see that on the syllabus
[17:50] Howl Yifu: I will look at and clarify and email about the instigations in 2 and 3 weeks.
[17:50] DeSelby Zarco: okay
[17:50] Rachel Geraln: thanks!
[17:50] Howl Yifu: also, I will post the transcript of this class on the blog.
[17:50] Bhodi Silverman suddenly wishes she'd said more smart things, since there will be a transcript.
[17:51] Howl Yifu: and liz, yes I am still in the process of commenting. I'll get to it soon.
[17:51] Liz Finistair: Awesome, thanks.
[17:51] Howl Yifu: OK. I'm fading. Any questions? I think this worked well.
[17:51] MB Vintner: nope. thanks, this was fun.
[17:51] Slothrop Charlesworth: I'm good
[17:51] DeSelby Zarco: thanks!
[17:51] Freebyrd Sugarplum: yeah
[17:52] Lindsey Ireman: Im good. Thanks!!
[17:52] DeSelby Zarco: bye everyone
[17:52] Kathereene Kahanamoku: everyone looks cute
[17:52] Howl Yifu: ok. I'm going to save the chat and exit. see you in two weeks. enjoy spring break!